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	<title>Comments on: Don&#8217;t Play the Forgiveness Game</title>
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	<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/</link>
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		<title>By: Melissa Karnaze</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2967</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa Karnaze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2967</guid>
		<description>Hi Alison, healthy, loving, functional relationships do not involve bondage or condemnation. And suppressing bitterness and anger is not the same thing as freeing yourself from them, or attaining grace. Grace comes from emotional honesty first, and then choosing compassion, which is only possible after you have dealt with your negative emotions. 

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Alison, healthy, loving, functional relationships do not involve bondage or condemnation. And suppressing bitterness and anger is not the same thing as freeing yourself from them, or attaining grace. Grace comes from emotional honesty first, and then choosing compassion, which is only possible after you have dealt with your negative emotions.</p>
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		<title>By: Alison</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2964</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2964</guid>
		<description>Eds...I read a bit on your Buddha sight and I would agree with you there. They sum it up quite nicely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eds&#8230;I read a bit on your Buddha sight and I would agree with you there. They sum it up quite nicely.</p>
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		<title>By: Alison</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2963</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 00:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2963</guid>
		<description>I find your article interesting. The whole point about forgiveness, though, is to set yourself free from bitterness or anger. Forgiveness is about grace, knowing that we all screw up but can set each other free by not holding grudges. I don&#039;t think it has anything to do with being superior. I&#039;ve hurt people too and have asked others for forgiveness. this lets them know that I&#039;m sincerely sorry for my wrong and want to seek restitution. When they do forgive, it sets me free from the bondage of condemnation. I have forgiven many people without them even knowing they&#039;ve hurt me. It&#039;s a choice I choose to make. Nobody forces me. And sometimes it takes years, depending on the offense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find your article interesting. The whole point about forgiveness, though, is to set yourself free from bitterness or anger. Forgiveness is about grace, knowing that we all screw up but can set each other free by not holding grudges. I don&#8217;t think it has anything to do with being superior. I&#8217;ve hurt people too and have asked others for forgiveness. this lets them know that I&#8217;m sincerely sorry for my wrong and want to seek restitution. When they do forgive, it sets me free from the bondage of condemnation. I have forgiven many people without them even knowing they&#8217;ve hurt me. It&#8217;s a choice I choose to make. Nobody forces me. And sometimes it takes years, depending on the offense.</p>
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		<title>By: Melissa Karnaze</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2365</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa Karnaze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 03:03:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2365</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Since forgiveness if just a mental construct our minds...the way you describe forgiveness is how you’ve seen it practiced, however, in another community this type of forgiveness may be frowned upon.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;strong&gt;eds&lt;/strong&gt;, yes, this is true. I describe forgiveness in the way I&#039;ve seen it practiced. 

To be clearer, as I&#039;ve come to understand it, you cannot forgive in the way that your quote described without working through your feelings first. 

Main reason being that we can&#039;t just suppress our negative feelings with the snap of a finger and have all magically forgiven -- our biology won&#039;t allow it.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t think this reflects a reality I have seen, the ability to process emotions so you don’t retaliate.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I have seen it, and I experience it, and this website is designed as a springboard for others to do the same. :)

I&#039;m not sure what you mean by empathy being a game. Are you talking about how tempting it is to have the other person say sorry to you first before you can &quot;make up&quot;?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Hopefully you get to expand your thoughts on forgiveness in your upcoming posts =)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thanks for the encouragement eds, it&#039;s good to know there&#039;s reader interest on this topic expansion. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Since forgiveness if just a mental construct our minds&#8230;the way you describe forgiveness is how you’ve seen it practiced, however, in another community this type of forgiveness may be frowned upon.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong>eds</strong>, yes, this is true. I describe forgiveness in the way I&#8217;ve seen it practiced. </p>
<p>To be clearer, as I&#8217;ve come to understand it, you cannot forgive in the way that your quote described without working through your feelings first. </p>
<p>Main reason being that we can&#8217;t just suppress our negative feelings with the snap of a finger and have all magically forgiven &#8212; our biology won&#8217;t allow it.</p>
<blockquote><p>I don’t think this reflects a reality I have seen, the ability to process emotions so you don’t retaliate.</p></blockquote>
<p>I have seen it, and I experience it, and this website is designed as a springboard for others to do the same. :)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure what you mean by empathy being a game. Are you talking about how tempting it is to have the other person say sorry to you first before you can &#8220;make up&#8221;?</p>
<blockquote><p>Hopefully you get to expand your thoughts on forgiveness in your upcoming posts =)</p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks for the encouragement eds, it&#8217;s good to know there&#8217;s reader interest on this topic expansion. :)</p>
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		<title>By: eds</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2362</link>
		<dc:creator>eds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 00:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2362</guid>
		<description>Since forgiveness if just a mental construct  our minds, i believe that forgiveness can be practiced any way we construct our mind to look at and practice forgiveness. So the way you describe forgiveness is how you&#039;ve seen it practiced, however, in another community this type of forgiveness may be frowned upon. It&#039;s like &quot;yea there may be a social pressure to behave in the forgiveness way which is described, but as with anything, we have a choice, if we are aware,  to not act on this pressure.&quot; Consequently if we are aware, we also have the choice to find a better way. 
and this :

&lt;blockquote&gt;There are ways to choose not to retaliate, process your emotions so that resentment does not linger, and let go of any need to punish…&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think this reflects a reality I have seen, the ability to process emotions so you don&#039;t retaliate. And I think that&#039;s why forgiveness is phrased like that. Also there are times when the person who you are to forgive is still acting in a harmful way towards you. So this is another reason why this type of forgiveness is ideal, imo. If anything I would call empathy a game. Oh I&#039;ll be empathetic with you if you are empathetic with me. why not just be empathetic?

Hopefully you get to expand your thoughts on forgiveness in your upcoming posts =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since forgiveness if just a mental construct  our minds, i believe that forgiveness can be practiced any way we construct our mind to look at and practice forgiveness. So the way you describe forgiveness is how you&#8217;ve seen it practiced, however, in another community this type of forgiveness may be frowned upon. It&#8217;s like &#8220;yea there may be a social pressure to behave in the forgiveness way which is described, but as with anything, we have a choice, if we are aware,  to not act on this pressure.&#8221; Consequently if we are aware, we also have the choice to find a better way.<br />
and this :</p>
<blockquote><p>There are ways to choose not to retaliate, process your emotions so that resentment does not linger, and let go of any need to punish…</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think this reflects a reality I have seen, the ability to process emotions so you don&#8217;t retaliate. And I think that&#8217;s why forgiveness is phrased like that. Also there are times when the person who you are to forgive is still acting in a harmful way towards you. So this is another reason why this type of forgiveness is ideal, imo. If anything I would call empathy a game. Oh I&#8217;ll be empathetic with you if you are empathetic with me. why not just be empathetic?</p>
<p>Hopefully you get to expand your thoughts on forgiveness in your upcoming posts =)</p>
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		<title>By: Melissa Karnaze</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2333</link>
		<dc:creator>Melissa Karnaze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2333</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;eds&lt;/strong&gt;, interesting article, thanks for sharing. I like how it encourages reconciliation, and distinguishes it from forgiveness. 

One of the &lt;a href=&#039;http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/reconciliation.html&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quotes&lt;/a&gt; you talked about: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;When you forgive me for harming you, you decide not to retaliate, to seek no revenge. You don’t have to like me. You simply unburden yourself of the weight of resentment and cut the cycle of retribution that would otherwise keep us ensnarled in an ugly samsaric wrestling match.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I would say that forgiveness as it is described here is not forgiveness as it is actually practiced, for the reasons I talked about. There are ways to choose not to retaliate, process your emotions so that resentment does not linger, and let go of any need to punish... without pursuing the traditional ideal of simply forgiving or pardoning the other person without doing any emotional work to get there. 

It&#039;s actually a huge and complex topic that will take several articles to explain. I&#039;m hoping to do so in the future. 

&lt;strong&gt;Solomon&lt;/strong&gt;, thanks for sharing your experience as it relates to the article. 

&lt;blockquote&gt;I got a blunt reply saying the dent was not by stamping it. He made the remark without even seeing the dent. But, however, I had the solace that I had asked him about it and it would certainly pinch him in his heart and make him think.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, that solace in knowing you at least confronted him... that&#039;s much more rewarding that &quot;letting it go&quot; and pretending that you are &quot;better than that&quot; because you can forgive and just turn off your feelings. 

You didn&#039;t have to do it in anger, just with directness. And even if he never changes -- in standing up for yourself, you showed yourself that the incident really mattered to you. So the next time, you&#039;ll know more of what to expect when dealing with your landlord, painters, or a similar situation... which will help you prevent a similar thing from happening again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>eds</strong>, interesting article, thanks for sharing. I like how it encourages reconciliation, and distinguishes it from forgiveness. </p>
<p>One of the <a href='http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/reconciliation.html' rel="nofollow">quotes</a> you talked about: </p>
<blockquote><p>When you forgive me for harming you, you decide not to retaliate, to seek no revenge. You don’t have to like me. You simply unburden yourself of the weight of resentment and cut the cycle of retribution that would otherwise keep us ensnarled in an ugly samsaric wrestling match.</p></blockquote>
<p>I would say that forgiveness as it is described here is not forgiveness as it is actually practiced, for the reasons I talked about. There are ways to choose not to retaliate, process your emotions so that resentment does not linger, and let go of any need to punish&#8230; without pursuing the traditional ideal of simply forgiving or pardoning the other person without doing any emotional work to get there. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s actually a huge and complex topic that will take several articles to explain. I&#8217;m hoping to do so in the future. </p>
<p><strong>Solomon</strong>, thanks for sharing your experience as it relates to the article. </p>
<blockquote><p>I got a blunt reply saying the dent was not by stamping it. He made the remark without even seeing the dent. But, however, I had the solace that I had asked him about it and it would certainly pinch him in his heart and make him think.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, that solace in knowing you at least confronted him&#8230; that&#8217;s much more rewarding that &#8220;letting it go&#8221; and pretending that you are &#8220;better than that&#8221; because you can forgive and just turn off your feelings. </p>
<p>You didn&#8217;t have to do it in anger, just with directness. And even if he never changes &#8212; in standing up for yourself, you showed yourself that the incident really mattered to you. So the next time, you&#8217;ll know more of what to expect when dealing with your landlord, painters, or a similar situation&#8230; which will help you prevent a similar thing from happening again.</p>
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		<title>By: Solomon</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2328</link>
		<dc:creator>Solomon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:29:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2328</guid>
		<description>Melissa, A very very useful post indeed! I purchased a new car and kept in the new carshed in my rented house. The carshed has long iron rods which were painted. During that time the painter boys did care to ask me to take away my car as it would block their way to paint the upper iron rods that support the shed. 

They stamped my damn new car and my wife said the landlord is a very influential person and we made a mistake of finding the dent long after it was done - a good week two weeks later as we covered the car with a cover.

She was of the view that the thing was done and there is no point in asking the landowner. 

But, something was pricking me... they should know my feeling of hurt and letdown by asking them that the boys did it. He should&#039;ve been careful in calling me to take the car out of the shed or should&#039;ve waited till the next day to get me to remove the car.

I got a blunt reply saying the dent was not by stamping it. He made the remark without even seeing the dent. But, however, I had the solace that I had asked him about it and  it would certainly pinch him in his heart and make him think.

I really like that mere forgiving people doesn&#039;t help them know that how much their words, deeds hurt people. On the contrary if we question them, at least they may change their ways if not immediately but later in life.

Thanks for the wonderful post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melissa, A very very useful post indeed! I purchased a new car and kept in the new carshed in my rented house. The carshed has long iron rods which were painted. During that time the painter boys did care to ask me to take away my car as it would block their way to paint the upper iron rods that support the shed. </p>
<p>They stamped my damn new car and my wife said the landlord is a very influential person and we made a mistake of finding the dent long after it was done &#8211; a good week two weeks later as we covered the car with a cover.</p>
<p>She was of the view that the thing was done and there is no point in asking the landowner. </p>
<p>But, something was pricking me&#8230; they should know my feeling of hurt and letdown by asking them that the boys did it. He should&#8217;ve been careful in calling me to take the car out of the shed or should&#8217;ve waited till the next day to get me to remove the car.</p>
<p>I got a blunt reply saying the dent was not by stamping it. He made the remark without even seeing the dent. But, however, I had the solace that I had asked him about it and  it would certainly pinch him in his heart and make him think.</p>
<p>I really like that mere forgiving people doesn&#8217;t help them know that how much their words, deeds hurt people. On the contrary if we question them, at least they may change their ways if not immediately but later in life.</p>
<p>Thanks for the wonderful post!</p>
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		<title>By: eds</title>
		<link>http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/09/09/dont-play-the-forgivenss-game/#comment-2323</link>
		<dc:creator>eds</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 04:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2058#comment-2323</guid>
		<description>Interesting perspective on the situation. I struggled  with forgiveness and then out of the blue decided to read about Buddhism&#039;s take on it. It made sense to me, and even made me a little happy.

I wrote about it, if you ever want to read about it. &lt;a href=&quot;http://califia.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/buddha-on-forgiveness-reconciliation-and-right-wrong/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Buddha on forgiveness and reconciliation&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting perspective on the situation. I struggled  with forgiveness and then out of the blue decided to read about Buddhism&#8217;s take on it. It made sense to me, and even made me a little happy.</p>
<p>I wrote about it, if you ever want to read about it. <a href="http://califia.wordpress.com/2009/08/21/buddha-on-forgiveness-reconciliation-and-right-wrong/" rel="nofollow">Buddha on forgiveness and reconciliation</a>.</p>
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