Comments on: The Dark Side of Personal Development http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/ Wed, 23 May 2012 20:33:33 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Count Sneaky http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-20831 Count Sneaky Tue, 17 Aug 2010 20:50:09 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-20831 Might I suggest that the term"dark emotions" skews the discussion to start with. Perhaps we should speak of "human nature" instead. Nature itself, unless you want to see it a religious or sentimental manner is brutal, relentless, and in no way human, a process not a thing ; it's sole operative principle is repetition. Human nature has one operative principle: survival. Seen without the window dressing, it too can be short, brutal, with suffering interspersed with periods of comfort, or lack of suffering. Nothing new here; this is what the sages have always seen when they dropped the illusions created by the society and culture they were born into. To call these "dark emotions", I think, does a disservice to the wisdom they can lay at your feet , and over time along with the greatest teacher, doubt itself, they are our great instructors. One does not have to plunge to the bottom, barely survive, and resurface with a message to inspire or sell or blog to others. You do well to suspect that their experience is not the end of a process but merely the beginning. You must also be wary of words and plunging too deeply into the myriad meanings they may have. Positive and negative emotions, are not things, but two sides of a process, both will always be there no matter what labels of the moment writers attach to them. They have always been that, and not a means to select one over the other, unless, of course you want to be a continuation of what you are now. Things in the long run always run longer than our enthusiasms or efforts. Beware, though, the teacher may keep you after school and put you in the corner for a while. Again, may I say this is an intriguing site. Might I suggest that the term”dark emotions” skews the discussion to start with. Perhaps we should speak of “human nature” instead. Nature itself, unless you want to see it a religious or sentimental manner is brutal, relentless, and in no way human, a process not a thing ; it’s sole operative principle is repetition. Human nature has one operative principle: survival.
Seen without the window dressing, it too can be short, brutal, with suffering interspersed with periods of comfort, or lack of suffering. Nothing new here; this is what the sages have always seen when they dropped the illusions created by the society and culture they were born into. To call these “dark emotions”, I think, does a disservice to the wisdom they can lay at your feet , and over time along with the greatest teacher, doubt itself, they are our great instructors. One does not have to plunge to the bottom, barely survive, and resurface with a message to inspire or sell or blog to others. You do well to suspect that their experience is not the end of a process but merely the beginning.
You must also be wary of words and plunging too deeply into the myriad meanings they may have. Positive and negative emotions,
are not things, but two sides of a process, both will always be there no matter what labels of the moment writers attach to them. They have always been that, and not a means to select one over the other, unless, of course you want to be a continuation of what you are now. Things in the long run always run longer than our enthusiasms or efforts.
Beware, though, the teacher may keep you after school and put you in the corner for a while.
Again, may I say this is an intriguing site.

]]> By: Melissa Karnaze http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-20686 Melissa Karnaze Mon, 16 Aug 2010 16:07:20 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-20686 Hi Serge, I hadn't heard that song before, thanks for sharing. I think you're referencing a quote from <a href="index.php/7-life-lessons/" rel="nofollow">this article</a>? It can seem strange how it happens, but when you numb out from feeling your dark emotions, your sense of identity goes out with it. Hi Serge, I hadn’t heard that song before, thanks for sharing. I think you’re referencing a quote from this article? It can seem strange how it happens, but when you numb out from feeling your dark emotions, your sense of identity goes out with it.

]]> By: Serge http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-20549 Serge Sun, 15 Aug 2010 09:50:16 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-20549 Hi Melissa, A lot of information in your post, thank you, but the the bit that struck me most was: "and as a result I slowly numbed out and lost my sense of identity". By the way, do you know this song by former Beatle George Harrison? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBMCxD5Q2O8&p=3F2B22F16C6232ED&playnext=1&index=50 (beware of darkness) My whole body resonates with this song. Music is such a powerful way too convey emotions I think. Hi Melissa,

A lot of information in your post, thank you, but the the bit that struck me most was: “and as a result I slowly numbed out and lost my sense of identity”.
By the way, do you know this song by former Beatle George Harrison? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBMCxD5Q2O8&p=3F2B22F16C6232ED&playnext=1&index=50 (beware of darkness)

My whole body resonates with this song. Music is such a powerful way too convey emotions I think.

]]> By: breathnach - StartTags.com http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-4723 breathnach - StartTags.com Sat, 06 Feb 2010 11:08:48 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-4723 [...] Oprah was responding to a need she was astute enough to perceive that existed in our culture. ...The Dark Side of Personal Development | MindfulConstructPowerful personal development comes from a dark place, one of pain. One of learning, growth, [...] [...] Oprah was responding to a need she was astute enough to perceive that existed in our culture. …The Dark Side of Personal Development | MindfulConstructPowerful personal development comes from a dark place, one of pain. One of learning, growth, [...]

]]> By: Count Sneaky http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-3382 Count Sneaky Sun, 22 Nov 2009 03:33:46 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-3382 A very thoughtful reply. Yes, you are right. We learn to avoid communication by the use of words, cultural "values" and commonly held belief systems. Realistically, unless you are a politician, you wish to convey your thoughts with as little window dressing as possible...with as much respect for the other's views as you have for your own. An ideal,admittedly, but one worth the work. My best. Count Sneaky A very thoughtful reply. Yes, you are right. We learn to avoid communication by the use of words, cultural “values” and commonly held
belief systems. Realistically, unless you are a politician, you wish to convey your thoughts with as little window dressing as possible…with as much respect for the other’s views as you have for your own. An ideal,admittedly, but one worth the work. My best. Count Sneaky

]]> By: Melissa Karnaze http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-3340 Melissa Karnaze Tue, 17 Nov 2009 21:17:23 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-3340 Okay, I think what you are saying is that if we face our suffering and do what we can to stop inflicting it upon ourselves and others... then the cliches won't be so common in communication. Because we will instead have more honest communication about direct experience, rather than ones about cliche topics -- that are used to avoid substantive communication. (Feel free to let me know if that's off.) I've thought about the love is the opposite of fear concept before. It never quite added up for me. When it comes to emotions, it's difficult to draw exact opposites, because emotions are rooted in evolutionary biology, which are interleaved with behavioral tendencies. There is the approach vs. avoidance dichotomy. And love could be thought of an approach emotion, and fear one of avoidance. But even that is not consistent, because since we are human and we have culture, for instance: we can learn how to use fear to approach challenges rather than avoid them. What I sense in your statement is a judgment of fear itself. From my perspective here, fear is perfectly healthy, normal, and vital for any physical, sentient being. It can lead to disaster, yes, but that's only if it's not *worked with* properly, constructively, mindfully. As a species, we are on the brink of validating this scientifically for ourselves, at a much broader scale -- it just takes time for science to get the message out. Meaning that research is showing how humans have an incredible ability to change their thoughts and thus their emotions in balanced ways, such that negative emotions can actually be transmuted into very positive outcomes. If anything is the opposite of love, I would say that it's apathy. But even apathy seems to be rooted in another emotion, perhaps hatred? And even hatred is related to love very directly. That's why I don't have a clear answer of how to draw opposites. And that's where I think a lot of misunderstanding about love comes in. People pedestel it as the ultimate human emotion, but I think it can best be measured by human action, or in some cases, inaction. Yes, it's a feeling, it's possible to claim feeling love, while not acting in loving ways. Cue to <a href='index.php/what-is-codependency' rel="nofollow">codependency</a>. Anyway, these are excellent questions you bring up Count Sneaky. Slowly, I hope to tackle them more. But for the time being, the focus is on showing how important it is to work with all of our emotions, because all of them are of value to us in one way, or perhaps many. :) Okay, I think what you are saying is that if we face our suffering and do what we can to stop inflicting it upon ourselves and others… then the cliches won’t be so common in communication. Because we will instead have more honest communication about direct experience, rather than ones about cliche topics — that are used to avoid substantive communication. (Feel free to let me know if that’s off.)

I’ve thought about the love is the opposite of fear concept before. It never quite added up for me. When it comes to emotions, it’s difficult to draw exact opposites, because emotions are rooted in evolutionary biology, which are interleaved with behavioral tendencies.

There is the approach vs. avoidance dichotomy. And love could be thought of an approach emotion, and fear one of avoidance. But even that is not consistent, because since we are human and we have culture, for instance: we can learn how to use fear to approach challenges rather than avoid them.

What I sense in your statement is a judgment of fear itself. From my perspective here, fear is perfectly healthy, normal, and vital for any physical, sentient being. It can lead to disaster, yes, but that’s only if it’s not *worked with* properly, constructively, mindfully. As a species, we are on the brink of validating this scientifically for ourselves, at a much broader scale — it just takes time for science to get the message out.

Meaning that research is showing how humans have an incredible ability to change their thoughts and thus their emotions in balanced ways, such that negative emotions can actually be transmuted into very positive outcomes.

If anything is the opposite of love, I would say that it’s apathy. But even apathy seems to be rooted in another emotion, perhaps hatred? And even hatred is related to love very directly. That’s why I don’t have a clear answer of how to draw opposites. And that’s where I think a lot of misunderstanding about love comes in. People pedestel it as the ultimate human emotion, but I think it can best be measured by human action, or in some cases, inaction. Yes, it’s a feeling, it’s possible to claim feeling love, while not acting in loving ways. Cue to codependency.

Anyway, these are excellent questions you bring up Count Sneaky. Slowly, I hope to tackle them more. But for the time being, the focus is on showing how important it is to work with all of our emotions, because all of them are of value to us in one way, or perhaps many. :)

]]> By: Count Sneaky http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-3338 Count Sneaky Tue, 17 Nov 2009 20:55:02 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-3338 I know how difficult it is to write or communicate without cliches, but I think we have to try. The first step, it seems is to recognize suffering. You observe your own and try to trace down where it comes from and see if it can be changed or done away with. Then I think we can communicate with others more readily. If we regard love as an action, we might fail to understand it as lack of action, or more properly the absence of fear Perhaps, there is only one emotion, fear, and all other "emotions" are but the degrees of fear, and therefore, love is the absence of fear and and may thus be recognized. Perhaps you may speak to this. I find your blog intriguing and thoughtful I know how difficult it is to write or communicate without cliches, but I think we have to try. The first step, it seems is to recognize suffering. You observe your own and try to trace down where it comes from and see if it can be changed or done away with. Then I think we can communicate with others more readily. If we regard love as an action, we might fail to understand it as lack of action, or more properly the absence of fear Perhaps, there is only one emotion, fear, and all other “emotions” are but the degrees of fear, and therefore, love is the absence of fear and and may thus be recognized.
Perhaps you may speak to this. I find your blog intriguing and thoughtful

]]> By: Melissa Karnaze http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-3327 Melissa Karnaze Mon, 16 Nov 2009 20:32:22 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-3327 Count Sneaky, I do think that the terms you've noted have been cliched and even changed in their now loose definitions... how you would you replace these terms? Or would you rather they just disappear altogether so that people would talk about the issues instead of the "themes"? I agree with you that caring about at least one other person does so much more than reading any personal development book. But even then, care can be considered a cliched term as well, because everyone has their own definition of what it means to "love" someone, some of which are very dysfunctional. That's why for the purpose of this site, I defined <a href='index.php/love-is-something-that-you-do' rel="nofollow">love as an action</a>, so that readers will know what I mean by the term. I believe that learning to care for yourself first is the foundation to caring for anyone else. Yes, the two help each other out, but the world has a lot of suffering because we allow for and inflict a lot of suffering on ourselves... and that would take a whole book to write about! Glad you enjoyed "vomit and kittens" as well, lol. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the article. Count Sneaky, I do think that the terms you’ve noted have been cliched and even changed in their now loose definitions… how you would you replace these terms? Or would you rather they just disappear altogether so that people would talk about the issues instead of the “themes”?

I agree with you that caring about at least one other person does so much more than reading any personal development book. But even then, care can be considered a cliched term as well, because everyone has their own definition of what it means to “love” someone, some of which are very dysfunctional. That’s why for the purpose of this site, I defined love as an action, so that readers will know what I mean by the term.

I believe that learning to care for yourself first is the foundation to caring for anyone else. Yes, the two help each other out, but the world has a lot of suffering because we allow for and inflict a lot of suffering on ourselves… and that would take a whole book to write about!

Glad you enjoyed “vomit and kittens” as well, lol. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the article.

]]> By: Count Sneaky http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-3324 Count Sneaky Mon, 16 Nov 2009 16:23:45 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-3324 A most interesting blog. The "vomit and kittens" line should be a classic. I would like to get rid of the terms like: Personal Development, Success, Positive Thinking, etc. They are such cliches that they have little meaning. The "Dark Side", is another and it makes me think of a movie, rather than the suffering of real people. Yes, it is possible to have a happy life and still pursue all of these questions. I will be 75 next year. An old geezer, but I have had a wonderful life. Nothing I personally deserved, but I was born asking the question: WHY? I've seen the suffering in this world and the only answer that I've found is that if we live for ourselves only, we will never find answers. If we love, commit to, and take care of, even, one other in this life we will not have to worry about personal development. If we do not see the suffering of the world and only see ours then we are back to "vomit and kittens" My best. Count Sneaky A most interesting blog. The “vomit and kittens” line should be a classic.
I would like to get rid of the terms like: Personal Development, Success, Positive Thinking, etc. They are such cliches that they have little meaning.
The “Dark Side”, is another and it makes me think of a movie, rather than the suffering of real people. Yes, it is possible to have a happy life and still pursue all of these questions. I will be 75 next year. An old geezer, but I have had a wonderful life. Nothing I personally deserved, but I was born asking the question: WHY? I’ve seen the suffering in this world and the only answer that I’ve found is that if we live for ourselves only, we will never find answers. If we love, commit to, and take care of, even, one other in this life
we will not have to worry about personal development. If we do not see the suffering of the world and only see ours then we are back to “vomit and kittens” My best. Count Sneaky

]]> By: Internet Cafe Solution » Blog Archive » The Dark Side of Personal Development | MindfulConstruct http://mindfulconstruct.com/2009/11/06/the-dark-side-of-personal-development/#comment-3322 Internet Cafe Solution » Blog Archive » The Dark Side of Personal Development | MindfulConstruct Mon, 16 Nov 2009 14:13:28 +0000 http://mindfulconstruct.com/?p=2888#comment-3322 [...] more here:  The Dark Side of Personal Development | MindfulConstruct This entry was posted on Friday, November 6th, 2009 at 9:00 am and is filed under Personal [...] [...] more here:  The Dark Side of Personal Development | MindfulConstruct This entry was posted on Friday, November 6th, 2009 at 9:00 am and is filed under Personal [...]

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