My grandpa grew up in a remote village in China.
It wasn’t until he was seventeen years old that he encountered anyone from outside of his village.
Those outsiders were Chinese soldiers.
They recruited him to fight in the Second Sino-Japanese War.
He fought in the war for eight years.
He never did receive a formal education, which broke his heart.
But he was fortunate enough to move to Hong Kong after the war. He worked his way up from janitor to successful and well-respected business owner. And sent his daughter, my mother, to the United States for college.
What no one says about the mindfulness meditation lifestyle
My grandpa once shared these words with my mother when she was young:
“Monks do not contribute to society. All they do is hide in the mountains and meditate all day long.”
By the time he said them, he had seen China in great distress.
He had fought a war just to survive when his village could no longer feed him.
He didn’t say those words lightly, but from careful observation.
The dark roots of mindfulness meditation
Too many Westerners forgo hardship, born into wealthy countries like the United States of America.
Americans especially, think they can tinker with the next eastern “toy,” be it yoga or mindfulness.
I say toy because people don’t look deeper. They don’t think about the broader backstory — the philosophical and political underpinnings of an ideology.
Mindfulness, which in many contexts today is synonymous to Buddhist principles, has dark roots.
Buddhism emerged in suppressed societies in the East, including China and India. Take a look at those places today, and it’s still very dark.
Big Brother has a firm grip on China. India is so racked with poverty that children right now as you’re reading, are being forced into prostitution.
These are deep, dark troubles.
Yet Westerners don’t include this in their mindfulness storytale.
They glorify all of its light and joy, without recognizing the shadow.
The evasive component of mindfulness meditation
My grandpa made that statement because he witnessed first-hand how mindfulness meditation can actually be used in a dysfunctional way.
In a time where China’s people were barely hanging together, there were monks who chose to isolate themselves from China’s problems, and ask for donations to fund their way of life.
Donations, from those who struggled to feed their own families.
My grandpa’s mother died from starvation when her sons left her to fight in the war.
In my grandpa’s eyes, being a monk was a way to evade society, and all of her problems.
The dysfunction of a mindfulness meditation lifestyle
In India, the social fabric condones “looking the other way” instead of facing society’s problems.
People spend their lives in pursuit of enlightenment, hiding in the mountains, or both. Schools refuse children born into brothels because they are the “untouchables.”
This is a dysfunctional system that’s underpinned by religious constructs.
And then remnants of that culture trickle into our self-help bookstreams, and we lap them up without awareness of the greater context from which these principles emerged.
Westerners try to fit practices like mindfulness (and zen) into their daily practice, with little regard for how it can lead to problems in their ability to remain connected to society, and all of her glorious problems.
Mindfulness meditation needs balance
Look, mindfulness is great. Mindfulness holds promise. Mindfulness paves the way for our future. And meditation is a powerful tool that I wouldn’t try to replace.
But too many people today worship EEG brain waves generated by monks who mediate all day long.
To wonder at something we don’t yet fully understand is one thing.
To take it to the next level and assert that we should all use mindfulness mediation techniques to essentially get rid of our emotions?
That’s a recipe for disaster.
Mindfulness meditation can’t be fear-based
And it reflects a fear.
-
Of emotions.
Of facing the pain that comes with being human, and living in a human world.
The bottom line is, no matter what the EEG patterns indicate, there are ways to be response able to life and to society — and there are ways to evade that response ability.
Going on meditation retreats so as to avoid real-life problems, pedesteling a guru or any other teacher for that matter, using meditation to “release” anger, and doing anything to silence your Ego/emotional self — is not constructive. It goes against what our future hinges on.
It’s escapist. Illusory. Apparently trending in mainstream psychology in the U.S. And now it’s even cropping up in psychological literature, even if in unscientific ways.
Mindfulness, when taken to this extreme, is dangerous. Not just to an individual’s mental-emotional health and well-being — but to that of the planet.
Because it condones that large groups of people to disconnect from their emotions and look the other way when society’s knee-deep in problems.
Direct mindfulness toward your emotional experience
Suffering’s no fun, and yeah it’s part of being human.
But don’t be lured into thinking that you can change your human nature by defusing your emotions. Don’t run from yourself in fear.
Muster up your courage instead.
Pick up your emotions as the tools that they are. Integrate them to tap into your inner power. Work with them.
You are a human of the world. You have emotions so that you can care, and understand what true compassion is.
Why mindfulness meditation has a dark side
My grandpa also told my mother:
“If everyone became a monk, then we would have no food to eat, no way to live. Society would fall apart.”
Getting food, building shelter, creating laws and agreements, protecting borders — those reflect the dark powers, your dark side.
It’d be nice if you didn’t have to get your hands dirty, but you do have to in order to survive.
The dark side of mindfulness meditation is an escapist attitude — from response ability to life.
(Many mindfulness-based practices try to warp your relationship with emotions so that they’re relegated to vagaries of perception.)
People who seek this escape don’t want to get their hands dirty with all the ugly things you have to do in life to get by, like:
- Setting personal boundaries
- Nurturing your Ego
- Becoming mindful of your personal constructs
- Experiencing your emotions, especially the negative ones
- Seeing the world’s problems
But as much as mindfulness meditation is often used to avoid the above, you can’t deny your dark side.
You can’t meditate it away.
What you can do is start using your dark side in a balanced way.
Which is the only way to create life that is genuinely guided by the principles of mindfulness.
This is the 4th article in the series, “Mindful emotion regulation: An integrative review.” Grab your feed to stay tuned.
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I once saw a tweet by a popular blogger along the lines of: “I’m finding it hard to not think about anything at all,” as he was attempting to practice meditation.
I asked him what he meant by that, since I didn’t understand why anyone would not want to think at all, as part of a spiritual practice. I didn’t get an answer (I guess he thought thinking of an answer to my question would interfere with his spirituality and holiness).
But that’s what you get when people who don’t know a thing or two (mostly not even a thing) about spirituality try to explore spirituality. It becomes an exercise in escapism rather than a deep connection with reality.
As usual you have written a wonderful post that touched on emotions that very few people take the time to understand and write about.:) This is what you call execeptional content that has a TON of value. I can’t find the right words to express how impressed I am with your knowledge and insight on this rarely talked about topic.;)
Wow Melissa, I think this might be your most moving and thought provoking piece, at least for me. Thank you.
Haider, Exactly. Spirituality is supposed to be about connecting to reality, not disassociating from it. And this *especially* goes for meditation. But the people who use meditation to remain connected to their emotions and their response ability are currently a minority…
(So you can imagine I was pretty excited when Krishna left this comment.)
Toni and Kelley, thanks for the feedback!
It’s amazing how the articles that feel rougher and more obscure hit a chord. Your feedback keeps me on this track of being more “critical” about things, rather than happy and soft. :P
I hope you don’t mind that I forwarded this article to the Seers and Seekers Yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/seerseeker/
Excellent article Melissa. It touched on many topics that I’ve often wondered about myself.
Regarding the shallow western attitude to eastern spirituality, I ascribe that to Edward Said’s Orientaliasm theory which I believe is still running strong today.
It would be interesting for any Buddhists to chime in this talkback!
Laurie, feel free to share the article as you wish, I just ask that you include an attribution link. :) Cool that it’s a topic of interest on an occult/metaphysical forum. ;)
Cihan, I do think that it’s still running today. People don’t study the history of eastern cultures and repackage elements like enlightenment into western cultures, because they play into many of our urges. But talk about careless, and I wasn’t even considering the potential political backlash on the East.
Orientalism sounds like core reading, thanks for mentioning it!
Excellent post. You certainly raised important points I hadn’t considered. I bookmarked this for future reference.
Glad to hear Linnea, thanks for the comment.
Sorry, but your grandpa might be a great soldier and businessman, but he is obviously to undereducated to have a qualified opinion about monks. And your repetition of his unqualified statement doesn’t make it smarter.
Guy, there’s no need to apologize, or to misuse the term.
Would you care to let us know how your opinion about monks is “qualified”? And perhaps qualify that with a definition of “qualification” — since nowhere is it stated here that education has anything to do with it?
By the way, what is your opinion? (Cihan would like to know if you’re Buddhist too.)
I agree with you somewhat. But don’t you think your grandfather might have been resentful because he was incapable of helping at the time. Sounds like he was projecting his emotions onto the monks.
You have no idea what suffering a monk goes through. Neither do I. Yet, if we were truly spiritual people we would accept thier choices with compassion and not blame them for OUR suffering.
No one forces anyone to pay for monks, that’s why they call it DONATION. Monks often also grow their own food.
I just feel an article such as your own is an extreme in the other direction. It may not be the cuddly, western, glorifying self-help books of the west, but it does go into angry, loathing and destructive energy. I just believe we need to understand that people experience life differently, and that good and bad are relative terms.
Thank you.
As a Westerner living in Thailand, I agree completely with your view on mindfulness meditation. So many westerners here are deluding themselves with the belief that by escaping to some remote sanctuary and monitoring their own breathing for a month, they are advancing in a kind of spiritual quest. They will trumpet the benefits of this kind of meditation to anyoen who will listen and some even become part of the Thai meditation community.
What they are almost always doing is removing themselves from the wider picture of things in Thailand. By focusing solely on what they believe has meaning — mindfulness — and ignoring all that they feel is transitory and thus not worth much fuss, everything else, they are disengaged from society and thus agents for the status quo.
I can understand the benefits of being mindful and have went to a few of these retreats in the past, but it only goes so far for me. I would much rather remain an engaged and informed person, then skulk off into a cave in pursuit of higher spirituality. It’s all part of being human. We’re not alone here.
I grew up in the sixties. I studied eastern spirituality in depth as it’s popularity increased and information was so readily available to western students. My very first thought as I attempted to undertake a “mindfulness” meditation practice was that it was a method for achieving indifference rather than enlightenment. I was lucky to walk away without a scratch. I’m so glad to hear you speaking about this issue because no one ever has dared to say out loud what your grandfather said. BRAVO for him and you.
Oliver,
My grandfather probably did experience resentment about what he saw, but as it was recounted to me, he wasn’t emotional when he made those statements. However, your comment doesn’t seem to validate how he experienced his life (which you seem to be asking of me in regard to monks) — something to look at.
Just to clarify, my grandfather didn’t blame monks for his suffering. He opined his observation of their behavior given the greater context of China at war and the complex of his life experiences.
Yes, I tend to write more “extreme” articles, that’s part of deconstructing belief systems so that you can create your life as a mindful construct. ;)
My intention is to try and wake Westerners up from the illusion that Bernie has witnessed in Thailand, and that Grace encountered in the sixties. I did not say that monks are bad people, and I respect that everyone chooses the way they want to live. One of my mother’s aunts lives in a Buddhist temple.
At the same time, I do talk about the dark side of that lifestyle (and every lifestyle has its shadows). Because I think it’s really important to be more mindful of, since Westerners are warping it to evade taking response ability for their emotional health.
I appreciate your thoughtful comment.
Bernie,
Thank you so much for sharing your experience as a Westerner living in Thailand.
Yes, this is a finer important point. The retreat lifestyle indirectly maintains the status quo, even if for most people that’s too politically incorrect to say.
Well said. We need to remain connected to our emotions so that we can remain connected to other human beings. Not just “in spirit,” but in the physical realm as well.
Grace,
Sadly, this is they way I’ve seen it pitched mainstream these days. People of course slap on the abstract spiritual jargon of “we are all one”/”the egoistic mind doesn’t exists” to obscure the indifference, but you nail it with your description.
And to “walk away without a scratch,” awesome on you!
I don’t know if I could have written so boldly on this without my grandfather’s words, which capture a life experience worlds away from me. It does need to be talked about though, because there is this hush-hush about the topics since the movements are overshadowed by gurus and “spiritual powers.”
Thanks again Oliver, Bernie, and Grace, for continuing this discussion. :)
Very interesting read. As a practicing Buddhist, I’ve noticed the disconnect between monastic motives and monastic actions and find it hard to reconcile. Ultimately, I must conclude that the reason mindfulness has dark roots lies in its perversion of the Buddha’s teachings. Realize that I am often a skeptic as much as I am a Buddhist, and so I have no qualms about accusing monks of such things. I don’t believe the practice of mindfulness should be constrained to stone monasteries or mountain eyries – that seems like one of the worst places to practice mindfulness meditation. What do the monks become mindful of? Themselves and each other. But this isn’t the reality most of us live, and it seems ridiculous to me that enlightenment can only be found when the trappings of civilizations are stripped away. Civilization itself is what I try to be mindful of, meaning that much of my meditation is less contemplative and more reactive; I feel more aware and conscious of my power to help others when I am thrust into their midst. The monasteries need to be smack dab in the middle of all that we love and strive for.
D-san, thank you for the wonderful comment!
I think it would be very useful to explore this more, but as it is, I’m mostly ignorant on how Buddhist works were changed over through translations and the creations of different sects.
Do any other readers have more insight into this?
True emotional resilience, unafraid to look into the shadow to expand your perspective. :)
There’s so much crap written about spiritualism/religion, etc. on the internet & I’m really glad I stumbled across this page. I will read more on this site.
As part of therapy for recovering from childhood trauma & abuse, I have found an ACT [Acceptance & Commitment Therapy] technique they call Mindfulness to be extremely helpful. Like when you get a flashback or a really horrible feeling in your body the idea is to 1st stop & accept the feeling & whatever’s happening in your body & you gradually reduce it through your attention. It doesnt go away, but lessens amazingly & allows you to continue whatever you were doing whilst accepting the bad feeling or whatever is still around. Is this a similar use of the term Mindfulness?
Also, I have a lot of time to listen to people who have experienced wars, my parents, grandparents, parents-in-law & your grandfather included. Gee, his mother starved, he sent his own [obviously much-loved] daughter away for the education he could never get, not even mentioning the horrible things he must have witnessed in those 8 years. He sounds like he was a very wise man, the sort of wisdom that is gained from much living and also much pain.
I’m agnostic & just sort of getting interested in Buddhism, but think reincarnation is a load of shite. Anyone who tells you they know what happens beyond this life is talking through their ass. How would they know? We’re meant to live here and now thats all I know. Sort of feel comfortable saying that here though, as it is definitely not an ‘airy-fairy’ ‘lovey-dovey’ type of page!!
I think until you’ve fully experienced the benefits of meditation and self-reflection you can’t begin to understand the impact it can have on a person’s life.
Looking the other way is one thing, but I think what you’re really saying here is that a person who focuses more on their personal growth isn’t as constructive as someone who focuses on the problems of a society.
These are conflicting ideas. By focusing on personal growth and using TOOLS like meditation one can overcome personal obstacles that can lead them to a fuller and more happy life, which in turn affects all those in connection with them. Some are unable to pursue dreams, to become active members of society, etc. because of mental handicaps caused by stress, negative thoughts, unnecessary worrying, and what have you. To discredit a widely popular and fascinating notion that your mind IS the tool in which you can improve your life is not only irresponsible, but ignorant.
Although I do see the relevance in your grandfather’s opinion for some, you cannot discredit an entire movement or an entire populus because of the irresponsibility of few.
However, I wonder how that war would have went if all the country men instead of complying with war had gone to the mountains instead as a sign of protest. Perhaps those monks were not hiding but just had no drive to murder another human being for even their own survival’s sake. After all, buddhists aren’t exactly the violent type, and I don’t see that as irresponsible any way you spin it.
But that’s just my opinion, as a novice, albeit casual meditating agnostic.
To say that monks sit around all day waiting for someone to feed them and take care of them is an outright lie. Buddhist monks have always contributed to society, they don’t just sit back and expect rice to appear on their table. In our modern, corrupt capitalist system, it is an absolute miracle that Americans are attempting to increase their spiritual awareness through Eastern religions. These monasteries have realized over thousands of years that the nature of man is evil, and they built these sanctuaries to escape this physical plane. Surely anyone spiritually aware can appreciate the fact that while monks may not focus all of their energy into this earthly realm, they are prepared for a much more important part of their being: the afterlife.
Marc,
Great question. My answer is yes, and no.
Here I use mindfulness in an emotions-favored way. That brings awareness to the emotional experience, so that you may continue emoting, letting the emotion run its course, and then at a later time tracing those emotional reactions back to their cognitive counterparts.
To pick up the pieces with mindful logic, so to speak, so that you can refocus on response ability, grieving the past, and reprogramming any dysfunctional beliefs.
The type of mindfulness used in formal therapy usually if not always has end goal of essentially defusing the emotional charge — interrupting the emoting process. Which can be extremely useful in certain situations. But as you say, I suspect the technique can never totally “get rid” of the emotion, simply because our biology won’t let us “let go” with a snap of a finger — emotions are highly networked with thoughts, beliefs, assumptions, and expectations, most of which are subconscious.
While the technique may be necessary for coping with certain incidents that go beyond a certain individual’s “pain threshold,” in general I see the productivity and opportunity for substantial healing in the emotional experience itself. Mindfulness-based approaches have a tendency to assume that the emotional experience itself is undesirable — which in my view is supported by sloppy neuroscience studies.
If you don’t assume that the emotional experience is undesirable, then you can actually integrate it, which will naturally defuse it. Or rather, transmute negative emotion into greater compassion, understanding, gratitude (not forgiveness) and so on.
I wrote about this pitfall in the earlier articles of this series.
I would very much be interested in hearing your feedback, as you have experienced benefits from ACT. :) And because I see much promise for the constructs of mindfulness and emotion regulation to merge into something really helpful.
Thanks Marc. He changed so much from his generation to mine. It amazes me.
I happen to believe in reincarnation, and am not at all offended by your viewpoint. In fact, I totally agree that we need to live here and now — so many spiritual beliefs get in the way of that.
You are definitely welcome to speak your mind here, this is so not Love & Light Land, thanks for the comment!
Marc,
I just want to thank Marc for his few words on my father’ life. In just a few sentences you validated his whole life totally. He would have been moved to tears if he were alive today. I cried when I read your comment about him. Yes, I agree that he was a very wise man. And he did not blame anyone for his sufferings all his life.
I believe the purpose of mindfulness training is to carry over into life. Isn’t that the whole point? If you look at the Zen concept of the “Ten Bulls,” after finding and taming the bull you eventually ride it back to the market and rejoin the world. Being in it but not of it, spreading the compassion that comes with understanding of the source. Anyone who truly understands that kind of teaching should realize that. However, to use a favorite Bruce Lee quote, “It’s like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don’t concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory.”
People are always doing that kind of thing. Monks are monks because they are trying to pursue some understanding that is already inside them and IS them. How many people can we believe have actually “gotten it” since Buddha himself? Who knows?
And where someone above mentioned distortion of Buddhist teaching over time, it isn’t necessarily the way many think of Western beliefs or the Bible, as something that was purposefully edited in order to mislead, but just a message that we’ve been playing telephone with for thousands of years.
The criticism is valid but isn’t. To make it an objective fact we’d have to examine the life of every monk and find some way to value their contribution to society. I agree that we should be paying attention to the dark side, but not overemphasize it in relationship to its good brother :)
To Coral and Melissa,
Never mind what I said, I think your grandfather would simply be moved by what his grandaughter wrote here on this page. I never met him but felt he came to life here.
Marc
Guys, Melissa didn’t set out to write a scathing attack on Buddhism. She’s writing about the ‘west’ and the particular ways it digests aspects of the ‘east’.
Besides, everyone and everything casts a shadow.
It has never been my experience or my observation that dedicated meditators were hiding from or eliminating their emotions or evading responsibility for their actions and possibilities in the world. On the contrary, my personal experience and my observations tell me that diligent meditators are more present and aware, regardless of the emotional inflection of the moment, and more able to respond and act skillfully in that moment.
Meditation is difficult work and requires practice and patience. It’s difficult to imagine that there are many people driven by fear and seeking escape who would be able to tolerate the investment of time and energy it requires. I’m not even sure there can be such a thing as “escapist meditation.” Meditation as I practice and understand it involves deep and prolonged self awareness; something that, especially in the beginning, is difficult to do and often quite uncomfortable. Hardly an escape from difficult or painful emotions. The desire or need to escape usually drives people to seek distraction from their problems and themselves, not greater self-understanding.
As for monastic life being an escape, that perhaps is another matter that can’t be evaluated effectively based on the limited scope and testimony of the article above. I suspect, however, that there’s more to Buddhist monasticism than your grandfather’s observation.
I find it odd that you argue that Buddhist meditation practice was “darkly” born out of an oppressed society. Presumably, outward suffering was so bad that the inward road was the only escape. Does that mean that the more extrovert spiritual systems like Judaism and Christianity developed among less oppressed folk with a greater degree of freedom? If that is truly your claim, it requires more support than your say-so. On it’s face, it is difficult for me to credit.
Finally, isn’t one of the highest achievements of Buddhist practice to become a bodhisattva? To become an enlightened person who, rather than retreat from the world, remains skillfully and positively active in it? Of the practitioners I know, all agree that the bodhisattva ideal is the (admittedly distant) aim of their practice.
I’m not a scholar and don’t claim to have thorough knowledge of Buddhism’s long history and tapestry of traditions through all nations and cultures. My thoughts here spring mostly from my own experience and observations. There is a human tendency, that transcends ethnic origin, to plaster over gaps in our understanding with a thick paste of swagger and judgment. It is a goal of my practice to transform this habit in myself. I hope that I have been successful.
Thanks.
Ouch!
I think you’ve struck a nerve.
Actually, I have much more to say than that…
Melissa, your story about your grandpa cannot be invalidated by the defenders of meditation because that was his experience and you wouldn’t be here talking to us if he didn’t make the courageous decisions he made. For people to take shots at his life in the name of defending this “popular movement” is sadly self-righteous and hurtful to me personally. We should all be so lucky to have personal contact with such a momentous point in world history and someone with a POV that basically rocks the foundation of The West’s fantastical perceptions of Eastern Culture. I’m also half Chinese and three years ago I went to my great-great grandfather’s village in the province of Chung-san. All my Western perceptions fell to pieces and so did I. Growing up in Northern California I have no right to pretend I understand, no matter what my ethnic heritage.
If you want to practice Eastern Religion, then I dare you to go to source from which your beliefs came and then make up your mind.
Amazing article, Melissa.
Allison,
I agree with you here. Meditation is a very special tool for me that has had a big impact on my life, and continues to.
As I see it, personal growth and being a constructive member of society both require that you work with your emotions constructively.
C4MD3M0N1UM, I loved the movie Avatar. But lots of other bloggers said it sucked. I could call them outright liars… but then that wouldn’t be very honest on my part.
Evil is a construct.
“Escape the physical plane” … I won’t even go into how dysfunctional that is. It is a definite theme in New Age spirituality, as well as religion. Mindful Construct isn’t about the afterlife, but the life we’re living right now.
daniel james, humans are always playing telephone. Especially when they’re passing on the words of one man and developing multiple sects from it. It’s just in our nature.
Cihan, lively talkback, huh? ;)
Allen,
Your experience and observations are much different from my own. I know individuals who have been deeply involved in the Transcendental Meditation movement and have been mediating twice daily for 30+ years.
Whenever I write an article here, it’s definitely grounded in my personal observations and experience.
I’m not implying this; your presumption is. There are many ways to cope with oppression.
WN, oh boy did it strike a nerve. ;)
Someone thought I would approve his comment in which he said I am “simply acting like a dirty chinese communist.” He was sure right about one thing, personal web real estate does not ensure freedom of speech.
Thanks for your second comment and for sharing your story.
The thing about rocking foundations is that people are bound to be upset. It’s a natural defense mechanism to personally attack when you feel threatened. Has been very interesting on my end to see the reactions.
Btw, Marc and Cihan, it’s interesting to see some agnostics practicing Buddhism. I’ve come across some individuals who don’t believe in intelligent design, but that all things in the universe carry consciousness.
We are here for but one hicup in the inhebriation that is time and to spend it worrying about what’s next, we should be more concerned with what’s NOW!! eternity is next its easy, you live, your vesel dies and you then become infinate energy that will always be. if you then get bored of being infinate? you can be reborn and start to begin to live again. it’s perpetual and i like it! john baker england
Amen john.
I guess once you die, you will know whether this article was correct or not.
If it is all blackness, then you were correct, and it is best to labor on Earth for the physical welfare of all; and the monks were often practicing in vain.
If it is all light, then the monks were the true laborers; and the social activists were often practicing in vain.
If there’s nothing, then noone will know who’s right or wrong & it wont matter anyway.
For me, things dont have to be black & white, how about grey-ish, or pink with red polka dots or whatever.
For myself, if there is a meaning to my life, then part of it is not spending too much of my time trying to work out something that might come after; something I cant possibly learn or know whilst alive.
yow Melissa,
how are you? and all the others that are typing/reading their life away at this site?
In general, chatrooms keep people well blocked in opinions and points of view. changing opinions and discussions are no answer for the unsatisfactory nature of samsara but are samsara. Samsara means “going in circles”, repeating the energy to go in a similar way with each time another mask put on upholding the illusion it is something different. If you like to do that and you are aware of what you are doing, then that is your choice if you don’t like that or see that you are in a repetitive condition, you might want to get out of it, but how do you do that? by chatting along about oppression-mindfullness-experiences?
I’m sorry to say that untill – suddenly out of the blue (joking, cause nothing happens without a cause) – a chat-buddha emerges who gives us the chat-teachings, I don’t think we have any example of chatting giving any onther results then temporarily relief (and thus installing) of frustration which is itself the root for the need of the next temporary relief/installing by the next chat. that’s how it works for me. but I could be wrong and maybe chatting can get somebody in the utter-blissful transcendental mindfullness awareness state that we all want so badly, who knows :-)
meditation under the guidance of a traditional realised lineage is a far better choice then any enthusiastic newborn chatroom of any newborn scientific appoached alternatif.
I think the temporary “civilised” person has the possibility to approach a tradition that – despite the chatboxes – comes over through many centuries of experience and testing in a little more respectfull way then what we are used to. If you have time to spent and you are in need, I can give you a few links to serious material about this.
here’s a free starter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDSAAlrqAHM
big hug
godi
Hi godi,
I’m well, thanks. Won’t be speaking for the other readers. But your casting them as “typing/reading their life away at this site” doesn’t slip by my nose. When you open with such passive aggression, I can sniff out the agenda of your comment. ;)
Godi, I would say you’re blocked in your own opinions about chatrooms. (Technically, this is not a chatroom, but an online discussion forum. And yes, it has its setbacks, as well as its merits.) You’re sitting on quite a high horse to come here and tell me that I need a chat-Buddha to show me how it’s done, when your own comment is classic Ego — my way’s better/more enlightened than what you present at your “enthusiastic newborn chatroom” (with little respect to the actual content here).
In your own attempt to chat, you’re dropping your agenda without being mindful of the agenda here. At Mindful Construct, the mantra is “What About Me?” because killing the Ego is not the goal — nurturing it is. :)
This mindfulness you reference is most likely the type I critique in this article.
Read around a bit, you’ll see response ability is not about temporary relief. But the type of long-term emotional resilience that the foundational belief of Buddhism conflicts with — all that pessimistic bunk about the mind being a manufacturer of suffering and so in need of being defused (often sugar-coated with the “transcendence” vocabulary).
Suffering happens. It’s part of the human spectrum of experience. To get with the program, you have to integrate that suffering, transmute it into something constructive. Pretending that it doesn’t exist by imagining (with your mind) that the mind is defective… won’t get you very far.
Historically, many children living in poor families went to monasteries just to get an education.Even today in some regions monasteries are the only place for poor people to get a proper education.
You cannot escape from yourself. I’m quite sure that monks living in the monasteries have realized that.
There are many kinds of people living in monasteries – they have various reasons for being there. Just like in any society. Some probably are trying to escape the society. But it’s certainly pointless to make generalizations based on the fact that there are some “bad monks”.
And where in the world did you get the idea that meditation is about getting rid of emotions…
I’m a student. I don’t have a job. My parents are supporting me. One could say that I’m just as useless and selfish as a monk. Should I get a job and cancel my studies?
joonas, a careful read of this article series will clear up this misunderstanding.
Hi Melissa,
meditation – if practiced correctly is in no way a means to hide away from the problems of real life. On contrary, it is about recognizing and realizing within the self the true cause of all those problems that demostrate themselves in our lives, in our society. Meditation, if practiced correctly, doesn’t lead one to passiveness – rather it encourages one to be active, be respectful of others and useful for the society, because sooner or later the fruits of meditation will appear and the only way to enjoy these fruits is to share them with others. Meditation, if practiced correctly, doesn’t recognize emotions as cause, but rather as an effect, a consequence. This meditation will want to spread to everyone; monks are given the opportunity to proceed faster on the way but even they, if not practicing the right meditation in the right way won’t be of any use, and might be even struggling with themselves.
Don’t condemn meditation as a tool, just because most of us are using it in a wrong way. There is at least one technique, that works for everyone, that is universal and goal-oriented, practical – that teaches the right way of living, that recognises that not everyone is/can or should become a monk, that some of us are having duties and responsibilities that leave less time to practice meditation during the day (but at the same time encourages to practise mindfulness and loving kindness in real-life – because this is another very important aspect of it – to apply in real life what this meditation teaches us..).
Buddha dedicated the last something like forty years (!!!) of his life to serve the others, to instruct them how to practice – among his disciples one could find all kind of people, even kings and generals, people with high positions in the society, not only monks and the like..
Before we condemn it, let’s experience on ourselves, whether this tool can be of any benefit for us and in turn for the others, the society, etc. … because, let’s be honest, have we come up with any general and universal system that would be capable of realizing the moral values, the right way of living and an unconditional love and happiness in each one of us, be it christian, or moslim, white, or black, chinesse or american, rich or poor, educated ot non-educated, healthy or crippled, etc.??? Laws and rules – do they even manage to teach us anything about morality??? Religious practices, rituals – do they recognize things as the really are? is worshipping and praying to gods or godesses going to work if we carry on living blind, ignorant, without respect, self-centred, without being aware, without compassion and goodwill, without love..
Using the words of Mr. Goenka, who re-discovered the almost lost technique of Vipassana in Burma and spread it to India (its birthplace) and later to all the continents of the world, the determination to follow the path of the a noble person “is like planting a seed. Our part is only to maintain a healthy soil with enough water and free from weed. The nature will then take care of the rest”. But that requires persistance and patience. Just like it takes time for a real tree to grow its first fruits. And it takes even longer to grow to a mature size, when it can withstand the hardest of the weather, when it can offer a shelter for so many living creatures, offer so many fruits, breathe out the oxygen that is for everyone… when it gives the people walking by and adoring it inspiration, practical meaning of words like majestic, strong, selfless, it gives them clues of how to become like a tree…
May all be happy!
Your title is a little misleading. As far as I can tell, your issues are with the escapist lifestyle of monks and not with the practice of mindfulness.
My understanding of the mindfulness is that it actually helps you see your emotions clearly. It does not change the emotions but the habits which may lead to unproductive emotions. In fact, some people say that the point of mindfulness is to make us comfortable with anything and everything.
And I would be fooling myself if I thought that I am already comfortable with all my emotions, or that I could become comfortable just by resolve. Isn’t being ok with suffering the end of it? I do not think there is much difference between your viewpoint and the true buddhist doctrine.
As far as the issue of monks being unproductive members of the society goes, it is said that Buddha encouraged many householders to continue their productive lifestyle and use their output for the benefit of others. The contribution of these people was taken to be far larger than those of mendicants.
And just to dispute the claim that the roots of Buddhism lie in darkness, note that China and India lead the world economically till they were taken over by other nations. Besides, it is not even clear if being more productive has made us any happier.
Indulging our emotions is just as much of an escape from reality as suppressing them. Mindfulness watches them; is aware of where they arise from and the effects they have. This process has the natural affect of detachment from, rather than suppression of emotions, which leads to the ability to experience reality without their bias. This does not, however, mean a mindful person is some cold, lazy, zombie.
Love is far more than an emotion, and is a much more bountiful and accessible tool without the petty taint of fleeting emotion. The mindful person embodies love as well as they can, and does all things out of love to the best of their ability. This is not a fearful way of living. It is quite the opposite, and ostensibly a more pure way. Though I can imagine we are all very attached to our emotions and the physical and mental rushes they produce, and it must be frightening to think about loosing their grip on us.
This is Truth, independent of political-cultural implications or nostalgia. It doesn’t “work” for one group of people better than another. It’s just the way it is, and has been found to be true and beneficial around the world.
As for the historical monastic life, my only defense is that begging is good for the soul. Maybe it is a selfish way to live, but that is from an outsider’s perspective. I would love to hear some monks address it, as well as why they don’t do more “outreach.” Or didn’t, at any rate. That has since changed in many places where there has been the freedom to do so.
At any rate, we can meditate mindfully and brush our teeth mindfully. We can fight fires and conduct research and lecture students mindfully. It is not inextricably tied to the old monastic life.
So what is the goal? It is not some great escape from reality, but rather a greater immersion into reality. Greater awareness. Greater wakefulness and intuitive understanding of the true nature of things. The distracting waves of emotion do not define us, friend. They are part of the dream.
Hi Matus, if you read carefully you’d have seen that meditation is a tool that I cherish. And I make sure not to use it as a substitute of working with my emotions. :)
While these are good intentions, it’s very vague to assume that meditating will solve all these problems. These are complex issues to tackle, and they take hard work, courage, patience, and self-love to even approach. Meditation can help with that of course, but I don’t think it’s the simple answer.
Aman, I select my titles very carefully. ;)
Yes, the other parts of this article series explain this specific interpretation of “mindfulness” you talk about.
I’m very careful before slapping the “unproductive” label on emotions. Because you can work with all emotions in a productive way. I see the passing up on that chance as being unproductive.
jp, it’s interesting, because I happen to think that what I write about here is also the Truth, independent of political-cultural implications or nostalgia. ;)
It’s true that you can indulge in emotions in dysfunctional ways. But detachment is just a cleaner word for suppression.
Your reality is the way it is because of numerous constructs you have built into your biology, and picked up through social conditioning. As long as you are human, your reality is bound by your personal constructs. And your emotions are a vital piece that hold them into place.
You’ve just demonstrated the view that I see as being a dysfunctional take on emotions. We’re wired to feel. To refer to that as an addiction is a way to dissociate from human nature. If you want to talk about love, let’s talk about self-love. And accepting your emotions as a part of who you are.
Thanks for sharing your viewpoint jp, but this blog is very much about self-love and acceptance. A dream? Yes, one worthy indeed.
“it’s interesting, because I happen to think that what I write about here is also the Truth, independent of political-cultural implications or nostalgia. ;)”
Your opinions seem to be very much influenced by memories of your Grandfather and his, as well as your own, interpretations of the political-cultural climate of early 20th century China. In fact, that seemed to be the strongest support you had for your argument.
I may be wrong, and I apologize in advance if I am, but I also detect a distinct tone of nationality and geo-centrism in your words. You imply that a big part of the problem is Westerners practicing something they haven’t earned and can’t possibly understand like you do.
“It’s true that you can indulge in emotions in dysfunctional ways. But detachment is just a cleaner word for suppression. ”
The two are entirely different.
Suppression is a forceful act. It is to shove something down, hide something away, or to in some way impair it. However, whatever is suppressed still exists, and usually comes back with greater force. Political uprisings and belches are suppressed. Emotions certainly can be, and they always build up and come raging back.
Detachment is a non-forceful act. It is to release something, to let it go and loose its influence on you. Whatever is released doesn’t fight its way back, because it has been dealt with and is no longer interesting. Past and possessions are two of the most common things detached from. Emotions certainly can be, and when they are, a “person” can see much more clearly.
“Your reality is the way it is because of numerous constructs you have built into your biology, and picked up through social conditioning. As long as you are human, your reality is bound by your personal constructs. And your emotions are a vital piece that hold them into place.”
I agree completely. The key point is “your reality,” which is, unfortunately, not true reality. What a sad, scary way to live. There is so much more!
This also relates to the rest of your remarks, and the way I finished my post. I believe you misinterpreted what I meant by emotions being part of the dream. This thing you call waking life and “reality” is a dream, friend. An illusion.
Thinking we are bound by and dependent on some sticky mash of chemical reactions in the brain is exactly what keeps us from understanding our true natures. Our body produces emotions, and we are left to react to them. Mindfulness and detachment aren’t about making them stop. They are about understanding them so that we do not have to be driven by them.
So what then should drive us? Love. Love, which doesn’t wax and wane like emotions, but perseveres and holds the Universe together. Love, which is true human nature, rather than the dramatic emotional roller coasters people just can’t seem to get enough of. And really, forgoing a more clear and loving style of living just to get tossed around in the waves of emotion and the way it tickles the back of your neck is just as selfish.
jp, the two principles of this site, mindful constructs and response ability, are the Truth I am referring to. Articles flesh them out, and do take on more personal tones as you pointed out.
I don’t share your opinion that this “limitation” is *unfortunate,* but rather focus on creating life as a mindful construct, based on response ability.
If we are more than what our physical reality tells us, then why do you think we are incarnate here? What is the purpose of going from something blissful to an animal body at the mercy of emotions? If what we really were was so much better, then why are we here?
Yes, “reality” as we experience it is constructed. And you prescribe meditation as the red pill, correct?
Bash emotions all you want here, but I prescribe self-love as the red pill. And I’m still not convinced that detachment isn’t a subtler form of suppression. The brain doesn’t work so simply like that.
By the way, how do you define love? In specific, concrete terms?
When I talk about love, I don’t refer to filial, fraternal, friendly, or romantic love, but rather unconditional love. “The Force,” the glue of the Universe, the golden lotus… and a million other metaphors that attempt to describe it. But concretely, I mean love without condition, Compassion is the practical application of unconditional love, and forgiveness, kindness, etc. are the fruits of it.
“If what we really were was so much better, then why are we here?”
The monks would say your answer is in your question, for were you content, you would not be here. It is because you have that question, and make distinctions between things like “we” and “if” and “here,” that “you” “are” “here.” I personally don’t know why we are here, and don’t really care to know.
I am sorry that you are not convinced that the brain works as simply as that. Perhaps this site will explain things better: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-mindfulness-approach/201002/online-mindfulness-meditation-therapy-overcoming-social-anxiety
Your link about self-love as the red pill certainly reinforces what you have been saying. It seems we both agree and disagree.
Loving yourself, and more importantly, feeling compassion for yourself, are immensely important and integral in your ability to feel compassion for others. But your “pill” doesn’t seem to go further than loving yourself and accepting certain limitations that keep it from getting any further than that.
The main limitation, and the main point on which we disagree, it seems, is the ego. You think that the ego is who we are. I think it is another illusion that keeps us from understanding our true nature. Indeed it is the greatest illusion, the notion of “self,” that keeps us from experiencing true communion with the Universe and all it comprises. The practice of embracing the ego takes us further from this integration by definition. My own goal is to “rise to the top of the pyramid,” where all become one; to become Love itself and no longer differentiate between individuals and objects. This would not be possible with the ego. But then, that isn’t everyone’s goal.
Back to the article though… Now that I have read more about your ideas of self-love, I can’t help but wonder how holing up in your ego it is any more beneficial to society than holing up in a monastery in the mountains.
Yes, Ego is a very important aspect of our multidimensional selves/ consciousness/ being human.
I can understand why you don’t have compassion for the Ego. Doing so would conflict with the desire to get rid of it and “be one with all.”
Psychology Today is a publication I read with lots of salt. I’m aware of the growing popularity of the mindfulness construct, but if you read the rest of this article series you may understand why I’m not convinced by your argument. This doesn’t mean I don’t see any value whatsoever in the mainstream mindfulness practices, just that I am skeptical of long-term success, as it can easily be used to avoid emotions for mostly escapist reasons rooted in a fear of emotions themselves.
I don’t take “unconditional love/ love without condition” as a concrete definition because it’s circular; love still hasn’t been defined concretely. Unconditional love is an abstract term that’s well-suited battle cry for the Kill Ego Crusade.
“You think that the ego is who we are. I think it is another illusion that keeps us from understanding our true nature. Indeed it is the greatest illusion, the notion of “self,” that keeps us from experiencing true communion with the Universe and all it comprises. The practice of embracing the ego takes us further from this integration by definition. My own goal is to “rise to the top of the pyramid,” where all become one; to become Love itself and no longer differentiate between individuals and objects. This would not be possible with the ego. But then, that isn’t everyone’s goal. ”
I feel the ego is an organizing principle to help us develop and maintain focus, to live purposefully. The denigration of the ego as illusion or self-aggrandizement is often a barrier to appropriate understanding of the ego’s usefulness. You have a goal; ego lets there be an organizing “you” to attain it.
There is no need to rise anywhere. The Oneness is. The separations are. They are human distinctions about a whole system. We each get to be our discrete stories weaving through the greater work of art, to impart drama, comedy, appreciation, even compassion. The point is to experience. In some senses, that is the embodiment of the love of which you speak.
Laurie, I’m with you. If we are all one, then there’s nothing to worry about, escape from, or grope for. We already are one (however that means).
What a lot of Oneness promoters don’t like to ask is why oh why did the One split into the Many. Ah, because then that would mean that there is some *value* in the Many, or rather, the Ego.
“I can understand why you don’t have compassion for the Ego. Doing so would conflict with the desire to get rid of it and “be one with all.””
I’m afraid I didn’t say either of those things. I feel compassion for many things that don’t really exist. The ego is no different :) And I don’t desire to get rid of it. I desire to understand that it doesn’t exist on a fundamental, unspoken, and intuitive level. Why?
Even if “being one with everything” isn’t your goal, the effects of living a compassionate life are undeniably positive to yourself and to others. The practice has merits on this basis alone. If one of the best ways to live (if not the best) is compassionately, then it follows that we should let go of the things that keep us from living that way.
In other words, it’s hard to live a compassionate life that benefits others if your consciousness it clouded by the high’s and lows and fluctuating “good” and “bad” emotions. It’s harder to be Love when you give in to feelings like jealousy, lust, and contempt.
“What a lot of Oneness promoters don’t like to ask is why oh why did the One split into the Many. Ah, because then that would mean that there is some *value* in the Many, or rather, the Ego.”
Actually, they do talk about this. The Buddhists refer to it as “The Mirror Breaking,” the point when the primal consciousness became aware of itself and shattered into what we are now, the “Many.”
To say that the Ego doesn’t exist is not unconditionally accepting the fact that the human brain generates several constructs that create the Ego aspect of consciousness.
You can use the “reality is an illusion” argument to negate this, but I won’t be buying it. :)
Then we are at an impasse, my friend, and I thank you for the good conversation.
By the by, I’d still like to know how holing up in yourself is any more beneficial to society than holing up in a monastery.
I’d also like to hear your definition of love.
And I thank you jp for your thoughtful comments.
Since I’m not talking about holing up in yourself, I don’t have an answer to your first request.
As for how love’s been defined here, it’s something that you do.
I shall be more specific then. How is your practice of self-love more beneficial to society than the monastic life?
I enjoyed your article on what Love is. I smile, because we have similar mechanisms, but they manifest in different ways, it seems. My basis is in love for all things, and yours seems to be based in romantic, or at least interpersonal love.
When I think of Respect, I think more of the Golden Rule. Your definition springs from this, because if you treat all others how you treat yourself, you will respect their boundaries.
What you call acceptance, I typically think of as forgiveness. Unconditional love always forgives, and this forgiveness or acceptance is one of the most powerful acts of Love.
You talk about surrender: “When you surrender in love, you let go of the outcome completely. You simply do all that you can that is loving, and let the rest take its place. If that means the person you love hardly notices you as a blip in their world, so cry it.”
That’s exactly what I’m going for! Except for all things, all the time, rather than a person, for a time.
I hope that helps you understand my definition of Love. But there is also little more to it than that. You say, “Love isn’t just a noun, it’s a verb!” I say, “Love isn’t just a verb, it’s a noun!” It’s what connects us to each other and to everything.
Hi jp,
I didn’t write that the practice of self-love is more beneficial to society than the monastic life. Maybe you interpreted my grandfather’s words as my own.
My statement was: “The dark side of mindfulness meditation is an escapist attitude — from response ability to life.”
A monastic life — or any lifestyle for that matter — that is focused on using mindfulness meditation to essentially detach from emotions is by definition not response able (that’s probably the closest I can get to your use of “beneficial to society”).
Great to hear to we have some common ground with the other article. The reason I focus on interpersonal love is because it’s the hardest type. As I see it, it’s easy to love things, but loving people is a real challenge.
And… I have a different take on forgiveness, or at least, how to eventually get there. :P
I am a monk. We farm. If everyone was a monk I think we could still eat.
It isn’t fair to trash something like mindfulness when really the problems you cite are the fault of religious institutionalism and are in fact common to all religions. The dark side is that of religious hierarchy and doctrine and its parasitic hold on humanity. For the most part the underlying philosophies of religions are like your own and are nothing more than a statement about our human potentials and actualities. In fact not really anything more than what most people do every day by being kind and cooperative and thoughtful; what they would continue to do without religious or even philosophical “guidance”.
jeff, I think mindfulness is a wonderful thing, that’s why it’s in the title of this site!
After reading the whole article I have to agree with you. Mindfulness is a great, powerful, and wonderful thing, but not when used to disengage. Mindfulness, like all things, has its place in our lives and any teacher worth her salt should state as much.
Exactly Chris, mindfulness isn’t everything. As wonderful as it is, it doesn’t solve all of life’s problems. I suspect the people who get pricked by this (article) have a codependent relationship with their preferred doctrine of mindfulness.
Well Melissa, number one you are playing devil’s advocate by proposing a “critique” of “mindfulness (or buddhism)” in the guise of grand dad’s viewpoint. Very nice.
Both my “grandfathers” fought in wars against so-called “tyranny” also. Good for them.
What have you done in your life Melissa? Just curious. Not really.
I don’t believe anyone actually owns spiritual principles. The so-called “East” or what people used to say, the “far east” does not have a patent on being human anymore than the “West,” the Occidental swamp, does with its individualism.
Before Europeans invaded this land the native americans lived in tune with nature yet they still fought each other in tribes. There have been wars in India, China, Japan, and every other country in the East also.
From what i know, “buddhists” are not a warring group. But are they escaping from reality and not contributing. Are they avoiding intimate connections with other people for fear of feelings? Perhaps, many may be. But, it seems to me that one who strictly and devoutly practices mindfulness (what you term a “monk”) is maybe just maybe practicing peace (of mind and of association with others and with their environment). And also Love; NOT War.
I find it highly unfortunate that you and your grandfather have been brainwashed by Mr. Mao’s “cultural” revolution.
“People who seek this escape don’t want to get their hands dirty with all the ugly things you have to do in life to get by, like:
o Setting personal boundaries
o Nurturing your Ego
o Becoming mindful of your personal constructs
o Experiencing your emotions, especially the negative ones
o Seeing the world’s problems”
How is nurturing your ego something you have to do to get by?
Becoming mindful of your personal constructs is one of the aims of meditation, as with experiencing your emotions, positive and negative.
Consequently, nurturing the ego is what has gotten the world into as many problems as it has. Failure to see the picture as a whole, and only thinking in terms of “me” (my car, my money, my future, MY need to feel good) can never create a situation that is conducive to the advancement of all.
Talleyrand, if you’re not really curious, why did you take the time to write out the question?
Because it’s a passive aggressive borderline personal attack. And definitely not convincing that you understand the difference between peace and war. In the same way you put tyranny in quotes.
Toast, I was born and raised in California, care to explain your link to Mao?
A car doesn’t satisfy the need for approval. Getting that new car is not nurturing your Ego.
The world’s problems are due to the fact that people continually deny or neglect the nurture their Egos (emotional selves) need — that’s why the Ego/subconscious takes over rather self-destructively and inefficiently (in terms of getting its real needs met).
But, you can still blame it all on the Ego, which will only exacerbate the problem.
The greatest irony here is that Mel has shown she has the patience of Buddha. ;)
Aw Cihan, I’m so glad you’re here in the thread. :P
“nurturing the ego is what has gotten the world into as many problems as it has. Failure to see the picture as a whole, and only thinking in terms of “me” (my car, my money, my future, MY need to feel good) can never create a situation that is conducive to the advancement of all.”
I don’t think you understand the purpose of your ego. You have twisted it, dishonored it. Of course you don’t see it working to enlighten you, to bring you to the bliss place or help you to understand the human place. Thinking in terms of what you can do to feel good (really good — not “this is all I deserve” or “bright shiney objects will protect me”) is the only real way to create a situation that is conducive to the advancement of all.
And feeling good is not surface-level pleasure, but substantive pleasure, or leading your life as a mindful construct. :)
Actually you miss the complete point of meditation, meditation if practised correctly is a way of communion with none other than the absolute. I to be honest hate to use the word “God” because it makes it seem personal, but yeah there is an all pervading intelligence but I don’t refer to it as God as the name has been stained by followers, cults and people from orthodox Religions who do nasty things in the name of God.
JediMaster, you assume I’ve not experienced this. ;)
Hi Melissa,
I was moved by your blog post, more than I can express in these comments.
I find the teachings of someone like Eknath Easwaran, that teaches us to live a spiritual life while being fully engaged much more “wise” than a path that leads us away from the world and our duties. If spiritual practices do not help us live with grace and kindness in the middle of everything that’s happening in this world and influence those around us towards a more positive mindset, they are worthless.
Cheers,
Krishna
Thanks Krishna, I really like your description. I cultivate spirituality to be more engaged with what’s happening in this world, and it is such a powerful and beautiful tool when used in balance.
I cannot comment upon your research on whether mindfulness is running away from emotions or helping to deal with them properly as I am a beginner at learning meditation. I am from India and a non-Buddhist . I belong to a contemporary religion of Buddhism. i.e. Jainism. However, the philosophy behind Buddhism agrees with my logical think and ‘gut’ feeling. Yet, it does not make me qualified enough to comment any which ways.
Still, I would like to comment on your expression that monks do not contribute anything to society but just want to be fed while they hide away from responsibility.
Let me ask you. Do you just value human life over all other living being’s right to existence on this planet? If not, then please answer what do humans contribute to nature? We just feed on natural resources and make other species go extinct. So, do we as a species have a right to exist in the bigger “society” of earth’s ecosystem? And should other species banish us away from this ecosystem for just plundering away their resources?
I hope you understand that painting all monks with a sweeping remark is over-generalization. In that sense, take anybody who is fighting it out on the lowest rung of Maslow’s pyramid. For them, anybody who practices fine arts, music, etc contribute nothing to society. When the base level needs of Maslow’s hierarchy, viz. food, shelter, security are not met, anybody would raise questions on the point of spending society’s hard-earned money on those who just develop “classical” music, various art forms, abstract sculpture etc.
For a civilized society to function properly, there is definitely a need of a strong social and moral order. Social order is provided by the governance structure. Moral order is provided by religion (w/o all the propaganda ofcourse) and philosophy. You can’t deny the role of thinkers in the social system. If it were not, whom would people consult when science advances to produce clones, stem cells and abortion and debate whether it is a right thing to allow.
There may be many monks who have just run away to the monastery for shirking away from their worldly responsibilities. In a similar manner, you will find there to be 10-20% workforce in any organization which earns its wages but avoids doing any meaningful work. They exist everywhere and every HR person knows that. You just can’t eliminate such elements from anywhere – be it monasteries or private organizations.
As far as I have read, mindfulness can be practiced by householders to better function while handling highly stressful situations. There is no need to go to a forest or mountain to achieve a black-belt in the discipline. Even a small progress lets one better handle the adversities in life.
Please do keep Maslow’s hierarchy of needs in mind when you look at the perspective from which your Grandpa may have evaluated monks.
Hi Ankit,
I’m not generalizing across all monks. I’m explaining my grandfather’s statement and highlighting the dark side of the monastery lifestyle — that no one wants to talk about. As you said, “There may be many monks who have just run away to the monastery for shirking away from their worldly responsibilities.” This is what’s being discussed.
I agree. It’s probably higher than that. At least corporate U.S. is set up as a system to distract employees from meaningful work.
I’m not talking about eliminating such elements by interfering with people’s lives. The only way to eliminate such escapism is to educate those who are open, of the pitfalls of such escapism, so they can choose engagement instead.
Are you tying to “prove me wrong” by getting me to admit that humans do bad things? As Smith said in The Matrix, the human race behaves as a virus. We’re causing a lot of destruction to each other and our home, and it’s devastating.
You’re asking me to answer whether the entire human race has a “right” to live, when I’m no position to mandate such rights for the entire “society” of Earth’s ecosystem.
But if an advanced extraterrestrial race came along — that could wipe us out in an instant and that cared about the preservation of unique habitable planets like Earth — they would certainly have a difficult time deciding, wouldn’t they?
Are you referring to a theoretical species that could consciously banish us? If so, I don’t know what they “should” do. And to be clear, I wasn’t implying that anyone should banish monks.
Yes, this is true from the perspective of those lower on the pyramid. But from the perspective of Maslow, classical music and art are actual needs to those who are fortunate to sit higher on the pyramid.
I disagree. Organized religion is responsible for numerous and atrocious immoral acts. I don’t believe you can separate organized religion from propaganda. Because any time there are religious officials in charge of what lower ranks do and think, with a lot of worldly power in their hands — the common folk don’t have the right to make up their own minds. So they have to buy into the propaganda. Or, “become followers.”
Hi Melissa,
I am posting a link to a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQfICW9C7Bw) which doesn’t at all answer the doubts you have raised or goes ahead to defend point-by-point of what I have said earlier.
It is a dramatization of the book Discovery of India written by J. L. Nehru (India’s first Prime Minsiter and Gandhi’s political counterpart in Congress). There are subtitles in English. He must surely be a learned man to lead India’s freedom movement along with Gandhi and then lead a nation limping to gain its stand in the world. Please see what he has to say whether mindfulness (or Buddha’s teachings, if you think we can equate them) means turning away from emotions or from human interaction.
I am not a Buddhist and neither am I subscribed to the idea of mindfulness in some religious way. I am a beginner who is ready to look at both sides of the picture. But, I don’t think you are representing mindfulness (and mindfulness based stress relieving strategies) in the right manner. Nowhere in the writings of Buddhist monks (translated in English) or in the books of Western scientists bringing mindfulness to West (Jon Kabat-Zinn) have I read that mindfulness means suppressing one’s emotions or ignoring them or burying them deep inside.
The monks have a special duty to adhere to practice the way in a more diligent manner so that they can deliver the teachings in their true spirit. If you research on Jainism, you will find that Jain monks observed far severe and austere life. Still, the Jain texts do not prescribe the same way for the householders. The Jain monks observe such harsh life so that they can set an example of what is possible for householders while being involved in material world. In my perception, Indian society does not treat ascetics of any creed with the eye that they have run away from life or are burden on society. Buddha, in fact, chose the Middle Path, as neither the cultism of distorted Vedic rituals nor the extreme austere nature of Jainism, in his opinion was the way to lead life. Even in Vedic way of life, students studying in Gurukools (schools of study under Brahmin teachers) had to daily go to ask for alms / food in the city and deposit it with the school with which the school functioned. The knowledge they gained was not imparted back to the masses in any direct form.
Again, there will be bad eggs everywhere. People who give up on life and run to monasteries for such purpose. If at all I have understood the principles correctly, such people will be a nuisance in the monastery too as they would fail to understand the true spirit of why they should be there. And also, mindfulness nowhere tells you to run away to monasteries for attaining nirvana. Monk-hood in any religion can then be seen in the same manner.
As for religion, I did emphasize that it is useful without the dogma. Organized religion carrying out persecution is a result of few people who use it further their cause. No religion started this way, it always starts as a philosophy. Only when it gets vested with super-normal social powers does it attain the power to damage.
Buddha has said that one should not believe in anything because the teacher has said so. Experiment for yourself and then find the right answer. I haven’t found a single mindfulness promoting text (S.N. Goenka, Jon Kabat Zinn) saying that mindfulness is the word of God and redemption is only possible this way. All very categorically tell to experience it yourself without buying into any Buddhist believes.
I don’t know whether you feel that whole idea of selling mindfulness is a brain-washing technique to get a buy-in of people to adopt a new ideology. As far as I found, mindfulness is a practice you can do without believing in Buddha’s philosophy though it helps if one understand the theory behind.
Apologies for a winded and long discourse.
Ankit, if you read the rest of this article series, you will find one about “Western scientists bringing mindfulness to West” who state in their research paper (indirectly of course) “that mindfulness means suppressing one’s emotions or ignoring them or burying them deep inside.”
In the video it’s said, “I cannot believe that a pessimistic religion can influence so many million people.” That’s what this video is about, a defense of Buddhism. This video doesn’t convince me that Buddhism on whole encourages people to get in touch with, experience, and learn from their emotions. It doesn’t cast out my own observations.
If you disagree with my representation, then you are not really looking at this side of the picture. It’s okay if you don’t understand the point of the article, or if you disagree with it. Keep in mind though that your opinion is yours. Other readers, like Bernie and Grace, have had a completely different observation after years of spiritual exploration of the East.
Isnt mindfulness meditation all about EXPERIENCING each emotion to the fullest and getting to the root of it? Or have I been missing something all this while :-)?
Plain vanilla supression is something we have learnt to do all our lives, no meditation required :-).
Cheers,
Krishna
Krishna, I would say so. ;)
A lot of fear. You could explain the benefits of proper meditation and self education in meditation. It is not about hiding from emotions but how to accept them for what they are, feelings we experience. It is good though to warn people of downfalls that can happen through blind faith. Take it easy.
I like this a lot, just came across it on StumbleUpon. I so agree that there is a very romanticized ideal of what Eastern spiritual traditions are like, and we Westerners love to ‘adopt’ these things without understanding that they all have light and dark manifestations. To me, the investigative process that the Buddha really taught is about looking very honestly at both shadow and light, in ourselves and the world around us. And working to transmute the shadows, in both, as well. And mindfulness is a tool in that process – it’s not just about finding joy in the present and all that.
Thanks so much for an insightful post.
Thanks Lisa, what a healthy way to look at it. It’s especially refreshing to hear from a meditation teacher. :) Mindfulness is *the* tool for transmutation!
Thanks Melissa )
Its nice that you are reflecting and sharing thoughts of your grandfather. I’ll be sure to look through more articles you’ve written.
Just a quick quote:
“Buddha taught an art of living. He never established or taught any religion, any “ism”. He never instructed those who came to him to practice any rites or rituals, any empty formalities. Instead, he taught them just to observe nature as it is, by observing the reality inside. Out of ignorance we keep reacting in ways which harm ourselves and others. But when wisdom arises—the wisdom of observing reality as it is—this habit of reacting falls away. When we cease to react blindly, then we are capable of real action—action proceeding from a balanced mind, a mind which sees and understands the truth. Such action can only be positive, creative, helpful to ourselves and to others.”
The original teachings of Buddha.
http://www.dhamma.org/
If you’d like to learn mindfulness, this is the way ))
sincerely,
a GrebBear
Peace Love Light Truth
(- ;
; -)
This is one of the best articles I have ever read, it speaks so much truth and wisdom, Wow, I am speechless, totally in awe.
Thank you for putting these thoughts in here, I am so glad I had came across this article, it has touched my soul, in a very real way!
India and China are poor not because every one do meditation there but because of their earlier policies of blocking the international trade by closing their economies. Meditation has nothing to do with a country competitiveness.
In 1600s, India and China were the richest countries in the world and US was one of the poorest.
Now Both India and China are growing at 9-10% p.a. Your grandpa is right that if every one becomes a Monk, we will not be able to carry this economic world forward.
We have created this super $ 60 trillion world GDP by our ideas, thoughts and innovation. To create this wealth we obviously go through lot of stress day in day out.
But if every one learn meditation and practice it before or after his work, this society will be a better place to live in.
Why do you think a suicide happens? Suicide is primarily a ‘thought’. Thats the purpose of mindfulness meditation- to alleviate painful thoughts or not attaching our consciousness with our thought process.
All i know, human peace can not be delivered till we align 6 billion people to tune to meditation so as to merge their self consciousness with universal consciousness.
If all 6 billion people on earth do meditation, the events like 9/11 are out of scope.
But meditation should not be done 24 hours a day like a Monk. The 6 billion people should also use their brain grey matter and thought structure to innovate and create more goods and services so as to grow the economy and experience life comforts.
If 6 billion people on earth do meditation, it will be a lot easier for the shadow elite to pull off more political smoke screens like 9/11.
We don’t need more sleepwalkers on this earth, we need more awakenings. Meditation is just the seemingly benevolent form of the zombie-fication of the body politic.
Sorry, Kevin. I would have agreed with you that meditation was the answer to world peace if you asked me like maybe 3 years ago. But now I just don’t believe in world peace. And I don’t consider myself cynical, just realistic. We need to work with the actual dynamics that exist in reality, not believe that an ever newer ideology is out there that will save us.
If geopolitics is something that keeps you up at night, then you need to get involved and make a change from within the belly of the beast. Wishing for change or hoping for it or meditating about it won’t affect the physical reality of our (tragic) situation.
Hey Cory,
Obviously you do not understand nor practice mindful meditation or you would not compare the effect to sleep or zombie-fication. Meditation is a tool for awakening.
As to world peace, of course meditation, a practice, cannot create action. Actors act. People are actors. We tend to repeat behaviors for which we have been rewarded. If we are to act toward a more peaceful world, we need to feel that such an outcome would be a personal reward, would be personally meaningful and pleasurable. Meditation can help us toward such a realization in a world that is not peaceful for direct experience of such pleasure.
There is nothing about meditation that would keep one from serious involvement in world affairs. There is much that can help inform us as individual actors in a world that often feels hostile and peaceless. This is not wishing or hoping. This is another form of preparation and self-motivation.
Laurie, you’re right. I obviously don’t understand nor practice mindful meditation. I have no idea what those two words strung together mean. I have a stereotypical image in my mind, but I have never delved into the topic and don’t consider myself an expert. But when someone says that 9/11 wouldn’t have happened if we all practiced this thing called “mindful meditation” I have to call BS on that.
I should have left it at that because I have not given MM a chance in practice and most likely never will. It doesn’t sound attractive to me, but that doesn’t give me the right to rant on something I don’t know about, right?
All I can say is that I’m skeptical about claims that have the following structure:
My ideology of _________ has the ability to make this society a better place to live in, will prevent suicide, stop terrorism, and allow world peace.
I don’t doubt that MM can bring personal clarity, calm and pleasure. Sorry for using the term “zombie-fication.” That was an overly graphic hyperbole. Personally, I prefer action-based activities in my attempts to bring value to my community.
“My ideology of _________ has the ability to make this society a better place to live in, will prevent suicide, stop terrorism, and allow world peace. ”
I never said that, nor would I. Ideology, as you seem to be quite aware, has no ability. People have abilities. We are better able when we are clearer, calmer, more balanced. These conditions are facilitated by meditation. Thus, in a visionary revelation one might suggest that a worldwide normative practice of mindful meditation could allow people to have clearer thinking and communication which would obviate the perceived need for “terrorist” attacks.
Action is all well and good, as long as it is predicated on clearly thought out strategy. Mindless action is pretty much useless, and stupid.
I am in no way suggesting you take up any practice. Your life is yours.
Peace,
L.
Mindless anything is useless and stupid. You’re obviously right.
You said:
“We are better able when we are clearer, calmer and more balanced. These conditions are facilitated by meditation.”
These conditions are also facilitated by masturbation. Where’s the spiritual movement for that? No joke.
“…in a visionary revelation one might suggest that a worldwide normative practice of mindful meditation could allow people to have clearer thinking and communication which would obviate the perceived need for “terrorist” attacks.”
MM works for you, but there’s no need to claim that if everyone did it then the world would transform into a utopia. Creating a “worldwide normative practice” of everyone thinking exactly like me would also stop terrorism, because I don’t practice it. But as you can see, that simply is not a real possibility.
MM creates a community that works for you that I don’t want to be a part of. Your heart is in the right place. But I’m the type of person who dissects every word, and when claims are made that don’t compute, I just can’t help myself.
The thing that set me off was Kevin’s claim that 9/11 could have been prevented if we were a society based on meditation. No. 9/11 happened because we were so damn asleep. Don’t ask me what the solution is because I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure the problems have something to do with corporate controlled media, corporate sponsored politicians, secret military operations, an evil fraternity of psychopaths with billions of dollars, and a population of people addicted to celebrities and sugar. Meditation may help you feel peace in a chaotic world, but it won’t alter the major driving forces operating on the grand chessboard. Activism is our best hope, and maybe even then…
For me, I want to live conscious and awake with the burden of the truth rather than pacify it.
Cory, Cory, Cory. You continue to denigrate a practice which you have admitted you are ignorant of. I don’t think I want to be part of any actions you are involved with. Then, you claim to
“dissects every word, and when claims are made that don’t compute” while clearly ignoring most of what I said.
I do understand your frustration with the craziness in this world. Mindful meditation helps to promote sanity. No, it is not a magic formula ready to swoop in and create world peace. It is a mindful practice which can help individuals toward a better understanding of peace, and, possibly, with other resources, ideas, communication, strong will and action, can be of help in achieving greater peace in general. I make no claims. I only offer possibilities. People are obstinate in their insanities, you know. My main concern, though, is that you equate a practice which allows for greater awareness with sleep while claiming action (apparently any wild action) as equivalent to wide awake awareness. It makes me sad for you.
I am not in any way exhorting or even encouraging you to take up any practice. I am encouraging you to open your mind a bit, any way you feel comfortable to you.
I’m stepping in because saying someone’s name three times is getting to be condescending.
Laurie, Cory was not — in his last comment — denigrating meditation.
His response *to Kevin* obviously emotionally triggered you, and you voiced it, and Cory admitted he made statements from ignorance, but he won’t back up on his main point — which is that he disagrees with Kevin’s claims about meditation being an easy solution.
I’m pretty sure the three of us agree on one thing, which you said:
Cory, clarify if need be, but I don’t believe you are equating the practice of meditation — which allows for greater awareness — with sleep while claiming action (apparently any wild action) as equivalent to wide awake awareness.
My interpretation is that you are equating the *mainstream* practice of meditation with sleep. Which is exactly I wrote this article in the first place.
Mainstream, across the board, mindfulness meditation is being used to numb out the masses. So that they don’t have to process their negative feelings and ego tendencies.
And one major reason we have “corporate controlled media, corporate sponsored politicians, secret military operations, an evil fraternity of psychopaths with billions of dollars, and a population of people addicted to celebrities and sugar,” is because the masses have lost their ability to experience their negative emotions — which give them discernment and power — and mobilize them to constructive action. And I’m not the only who believes that the eastern philosophies are being marketed to westerners to lull them into even deeper sleep.
Laurie, “It makes me sad for you” is a personal attack and won’t be tolerated in any further escalation on your part. Feel free to continue discussing ideas, however.
Melissa,
I am sorry you saw my expression of frustration as a personal attack. It was not meant to be an attack of any kind, but an expression of true emotion. I am saddened by people who out of true frustration reach to act without the kind of clear thought that could help to mitigate unintended consequences which make matters worse.
I really have no interest in whether Cory, or anyone, practices meditation, or any practice. I simply want those who are reaching out to make a difference to be more aware of what they do, why, and under what circumstances. So, if you like, strike the “for you”.
Of course marketers want to sell what will give them the advantage. This includes marketers of conflict. We do need to be aware of our own power individually and in community. We do need to take back the power of our own minds, by getting to really know our own minds, how to sharpen and focus them for our own purposes. And, of course, we do need to learn to communicate in ways that add to better common understanding and interaction. So, Melissa and Cory, if my communication was off-putting rather than elucidating, I hope I am learning to do better.
Peace,
Laurie
Laurie,
That’s not a real apology; it’s a deflection.
You’ve deflected the responsibility for having made a personal attack on this site — whether it was consciously intended or not — by saying that you are sorry not for what you said but for *my having seen your words as an attack.* There’s a difference.
In this and similar contexts of discussion/debate, when you say to someone personally (even on the web), “It makes me sad for you,” it’s a milder form of, “I pity you.”
And the intended meaning is really an insult: “It makes me sad for you (/I pity you) because [there is something bad or wrong about you that I would certainly not want for myself].”
As long as future comments don’t include personal attacks, even if subtle, you’re more than welcome to continue discussing these topics.
As you point out, I was not apologizing, but using a rhetorical device. What I am sorry for is that I was misunderstood; so taking responsibility, I am sorry I expressed myself poorly.
Laurie, it’s all good. We’re discussing a topic that we are on opposite ends of. Arguments tend to get heated, and I accept that as a natural part of defending my position. Here’s what’s going on with me:
1. I find Melissa’s counter argument to meditation liberating and refreshing so I’m like a kid in the candy store on this thread. I don’t like feeling guilty about not participating in the meditation practices that have become status quo in the self-development field. It doesn’t work for me. I am dancing in my opposition to it. I won’t change my mind.
2. I’m not cool with people throwing around 9/11 to make a point about their ideology. It’s just their way to get an emotional reaction. 9/11 is complex, multi-layered, multi-faceted, and in major ways still a mystery. Let’s not resort to such hot-button phrases.
3. The opposite of MM is not any wild action. Never said I was a proponent of the any-wild-action movement. But, hey, great discoveries have been made through bungling and screwing around. So who’s to say?
Laurie, it’s been fun discussing ideas with you! I think a lot of good things have been brought up here.
Hey Cory,
I am sorry for conflating your opinion with others I have been frustrated with lately. I made assumptions based on my own emotional buttons getting stuck.
In direct response, then:
1) No guilt necessary, or even desirable. It is much better, I believe, to do what works for you. What does work for you?
2) I am not interested in a 9/11 analysis here. I was merely accepting the discussion already in play. I am not even interested in promoting meditation, or any other practice. I was reacting to what I saw as your attack on others’ practices based on perhaps mistaken information about what those practices might entail.
3) The opposite of wild action I suppose would be considered action. The opposite of MM, I have no ready idea of what that might be. Any wild action, though, might be a result, though, of course, any wild action could result from many precedents.
My concern with wild action is not its wildness, nor its activity, but its consequences. Great discoveries can be made in a great many ways. Some wild actions may be useful in their outcomes. However, since this was my hyperbole, perhaps it would be more useful to talk about what you mean by action, rather than what I in wild rhetoric assumed.
Peace,
Laurie
Laurie, you have no idea how glad I am to read your shift in tone. This is a much more sharing vibe. Cool :)
And thank you for asking what works for me! I don’t think I would have considered it if you didn’t ask.
What works for me is writing. Writing is my meditation and it helps me discover things about myself and my perceived world in ways that I would never be clear on otherwise. I try to write in order to discover, not to persuade. I usually start with a question and then try to think it out on paper. I like to think that my humble blog http://www.sacredsheath.com is a seed that will grow into something larger that may have some real impact in this world. I can only do my part.
My meditation is the blank page.
What works for you, Laurie?
Hello Melissa
I enjoyed reading your article. You raised an excellent point about the monks who hide in the mountains to practice meditation for the soul purpose to escape their own sufferings. I believe that’s an act of cowardliness, which is along similar lines to people who want to end their sufferings by taking their own lives.
I have been a meditator and a dedicated disciple of mindfulness for about a year or now. I find it’s a refreshing daily regime that adds more color to my life. Have you ever considered that mindfulness is not about escaping problems. To me, true mindfulness is actually about accepting what ever is happening in the moment and absorb our life and soul with the present. By being mindful, we can make rational decisions, not extorting reality and form true meaningful relationship with another person. By being mindful, we can become more at peaceful with our truly hectic world. This peaceful vibe is also contagious to the people around us. By being mindful in the presence of others, we will add sanity and bring peace to them. Is this what the world needs? Everyone to help each other on a more deeper level. If everyone can be fully present with another person. If everyone can yield their own ego by being in the moment and become one with another person, there would be no negative emotions, no conflict, no sufferings.
I think that we need more of this new consciousness in North America. People are too absorbed in their own problems that we neglect to care stop and smell the air and feel the beating of our hearts and to realize that everyone in this country is ONE. In the end.. we should use mindfulness to accept and help each other.
I don’t know if you have read the book “a new earth” … its a truly insightful book mind opening book in which it introduces the true essence of the art of mindfulness and its evolutionarily beneficial purpose to our society
PS. please pardon my faulty grammatical errors. I wrote this in a hurry.
Hi Jane,
Thank you for your comments.
Definitely, that’s what this site is about. ;)
Well, you can’t really “bring peace” to others, but you can model it in yourself and support others in creating their own peace within their own relationships.
The goal is not to eradicate negative emotions, conflict, or suffering. True mindfulness is acceptance of those things and their role in the human experience.
But yes, if everyone were infinitely more present with themselves (which requires loving the ego) and others, this world would be a much different place.