Comments on: The Dark Side of Mindfulness Meditation

By: Melissa Karnaze

Melissa Karnaze — Sat, 12 May 2012 16:40:39 +0000

Charlie, here are some previous comments you might be interested in.

By: Charlie

Charlie — Tue, 08 May 2012 16:15:46 +0000

I am curious as to your view on mindfulness-based cognitive therapy (I’ll just say MBCT) for sufferers of anxiety disorders, or really any mental disorder where threats and bad feelings are not based in reality. You make the remark, “It’s escapist. Illusory. Apparently trending in mainstream psychology in the U.S.,” Implying that mindfulness training is absolutely not something that should be used for coping with certain mental illnesses. Mindfulness seems to be extremely helpful for people affected by excessive worrying, though, since it brings them back to and allows them to experience reality, instead of suffering fear from false threats. MBCT is not escapist in regards to real world problems, or emotions provoked by real world experiences. I completely agree with you that if it were being used to negate all negative emotions, this would be a very bad thing. Again, just wondered your opinion.

By: Morgan

Morgan — Fri, 04 May 2012 14:40:55 +0000

It seems like you are making two points. One is that mindfulness, or Buddhism in general, leads one to disengage from the world. The other is that mindfulness leads one to disengage from their own emotions. To both, I think it first needs to be pointed out that in any practice, there will be people who figure out how to make it serve their own ends. If someone wishes to escape from the world, I think they will probably find a way to justify that, regardless of what system they happen to use to do so.

As to Buddhism, on one hand, there are many socially engaged Buddhists. The monks who set themselves on fire to protest the Vietnam war are an extreme example. Buddhism is about moving beyond suffering (sometimes through mindfulness), and it seems that this can either be used to cultivate compassion and awareness of the suffering in the world, or as an excuse to reject and ignore those who suffer. I think how it turns out probably depends on the individual person though. You have a good point that it does not work for everyone in the world to simply stop living in an effort to avoid suffering. Instead, I think we need to incorporate the insights of mindfulness into our ordinary lives.

I would agree that many people in the west probably use mindfulness and other practices as a way to avoid problems in the world. Indeed, they are probably using those practices to avoid problems in themselves. I doubt that mindfulness is necessarily the opposite of emotional awareness though. There are ways to do mindfulness as a way to increase personal (emotional) awareness. Mindfulness also has the function of a shut off valve for emotions, and thoughts, but sometimes this is necessary. I agree that there are probably plenty of meditation masters with serious, unaddressed emotional issues that they would be much happier if they dealt with. At the same time though, I know that it is possible to think circles around emotional issues without ever helping the problem, and it is possible to get so caught up in emotions that they become habits rather than something that can be effectively used on a real problem. Emotions are there for a reason, and I agree that they are not problems in and of themselves. However, emotions are also complicated, and sometimes it is necessary to find a way to deal with them other than thinking at them or acting on them.

By: Melody

Melody — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 20:45:54 +0000

I just finished the comment re: Christian Science. It was so long that I figured I had better submit it and start a new one re: my experience with someone of yet another faith/religion/movement/culture/cult…they are referred to as all these things. I am referring to the group of people who define themselves as “Brahma Kumaris” (BKs). I was an intern at a counseling center, and my supervisor was one of the most intelligent, effective therapists I had ever seen, through her gentle, kind, nurturing nature. I don’t know if there are such things as differing energy fields, but if there are, I would describe being with her as being encompassed by some kind of light. I got to know her, and learned about the BK ideology. It isn’t necessary to detail all their practices and beliefs here – you can research them further, if you like. They “meditate” and “practice mindfulness” and “pray” constantly – all of which refer to trying to achieve a state of emptiness. Any sort of ego, thought, or experience of ones physical being is viewed as being unclean, and there is a huge emphasis on achieving “purity.” The only path to purity is to deny the existence of oneself. They are to rid themselves of any attachments to others – relationships are obstacles to purity. As I read about it, I read that the group is identified by some as a cult, and that people gave up everything for it. I watched as my friend’s experience mirrored what I had read: she divorced her husband; had a sudden decrease in her economic status; and broke contact from her family – including two little grandchildren whom she cherished and spent so much time with the year before. Then one day I got an email saying that she wasn’t going to be in touch with anyone because she needed to focus on her spiritual work. That was three or four years ago. Ironically, she still works as a therapist (according to what I have read, she will eventually give up her career, too). I look on the BK website every now and then, and she is still there; each time I look she is responsible for more and more things. I understand how it happened, though. The environment is very calm and peaceful. Everyone is kind and welcoming. You are immediately accepted. If you have an emotional void to fill, and you are intelligent enough to twist things in your mind so that inconsistencies make sense, its a done deal. I had to constantly remind myself that the reason I was going was to educate myself with the hope that I could help my friend break out from this small circle of people…it was a very inviting atmosphere UNTIL I started asking questions. I asked if they did any volunteer work in the community. They said yes…they gave free workshops and retreats to educate people about BK. I asked if they did anything for the community that didn’t have anything to do with educating people about their beliefs. They didn’t even know what I was talking about: I had to give examples like donating clothing to shelters or helping in soup kitchens or holding fundraisers for other causes. The answer, of course, was no…except they never said it. They just continued with what in counseling is called the “broken record” technique, saying over and over that they offerred these classes and retreats free of charge. Shortly after that I was told that the morning meditation time was only for members and that I was no longer welcome. Actually, it was my friend who told me. She said that Sister____told her to tell me that. This Sister was basically in charge of everyone’s activities in as many areas of the members’ lives as possible because she was thought to be further through the karma cycle and therefore more knowledgeable. She was actively separating my friend from me because I was a threat. Same with her friends. Same with her family. You are either in, or you are out. There is no room for having differences; no respect for other ways of thought. That is the basis of a cult. There was one other warning bell that rang louder than all the others: one is not allowed to view the content of the book they study from every day until AFTER one joins. I’m not quite sure why I’m writing these posts. I apologize if I am writing to much….I’m new and don’t know what is appropriate, so please tell me and I will respect any guidelines you have. I think I wrote all this because I have never had anywhere to share what I experienced and how I watched my friend become more and more involved with this group and less and less involved in the outside world. I miss her. I grieve her. I mourn the friendship we had, and the deeper friendship we could have had. It used to infuriate me. Sometimes it still does, but lately I’m more sad than angry. I do have a background in counseling, so I understand mind-control and brainwashing. I know that by the time I met her she was already in too far for me to help her get out unless that’s what SHE wanted. Sometimes I wish I had never researched it, because the numerous beliefs and practices I learned about on my own – in which she is engaging – are scary, painful, and dangerous in mind, body, and spirit. Knowing these things makes it harder and harder for me to “let go” because I understand what is really happening. Its not like we had a fight, or she moved, or we just drifted apart. She IS a VICTIM and is BEING ABUSED NOW, and I feel like a victim too, although I don’t have the words to explain why.

By: Melody

Melody — Sat, 28 Apr 2012 19:55:31 +0000

I am new here and am glad – relieved, actually – to have found a place where the topics of meditation, mindfulness and such can be discussed. I think part of the problem is simply that the words “meditation” and “mindfulness” each have two, polar-opposite definitions in and of themselves. Some people hear the word “meditation” or “mindful” and immediately think of it as a “grounding” consciousness; others associate it with more of a “floating” consciousness; and others of an “un-consciousness.” Many people close to me are Christian Scientists (not to be confused with Scientologists) Their practice, called prayer, is the same as when “meditation” or “mindfulness” is equated with relinquishing any sense of individuality and claiming – “knowing”- that all beings are good, and that any experience to the contrary is an illusion. KInd of a “hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil” thing. HOWEVER, these people are some of the most giving, generous, compassionate, loving people I have ever met. They have supported me physically, financially, lovingly…and have always been honest about their beliefs and respectful of mine. If you met them, did not know they were Christian Scientists, did not use any terminology relating to prayer, meditation, etc., you would experience them as simply being honest, caring people who do everything they can to help relieve some of your suffering and bring a little more joy into your life, and who are willing to go the extra mile with you, if that’s what you need. Its interesting to see what happens when you take away the words and just focus on the relationships instead. Its like “actions speak louder than words,” only deeper.

By: Fighting the day « Morphy Guiness

Fighting the day « Morphy Guiness — Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:51:53 +0000

[...] out this link, http://mindfulconstruct.com/2010/01/15/the-dark-side-of-mindfulness/ . What struck me where these words and I [...]

By: jane

jane — Fri, 23 Dec 2011 04:24:13 +0000

As stated by others, Melissa misunderstands mindfulness meditation. It is not about pushing away emotions or supressing them but feeling them, witnessing them, and integrating them. So unfortunately the pyramid of her argument is based on a wholly eranous foundation! I believe Melissa is the one who is over-intellectualising a subject she does not understand and insists in re-stating concepts with no depth of understanding. As regards monks, well lots of people resent a religious community or hierarchy in any religious, political or historical culture – probably her grandfather was one of them. But I think she is unable to analyse that correctly and is confusing it with a different subject of people’s relationship with themselves, their spirituality and meditation. Other places it is an interesting website, so it is a shame there is such lack of knowledge and insight on this subject, but I have enjoyed the contributions from others.

By: Cody Sullivan

Cody Sullivan — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 15:19:35 +0000

Have you considered that everyone has the spiritual right to live exactly how they want on this plane of existence? We are all here by our own will and we will do what we will in order to experience what we must to carry on our spirits journey. The physical world we experience every day is but one of many stops on our journey to the source, the almighty, the devine. Those monks you speak of that contribute “nothing” to the broken scociety we live in today are on their own path forward. Choosing not to rely on their emotions to function is not a wrong way to live just a different way. We all have our paths to follow and I would alway suggest looking inward to find the way. Love is what connects us all.

By: Janey Mae

Janey Mae — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 19:28:29 +0000

With all due respect………

Pop-psycho babble’s use of mindfulness is not the same as true spiritual awareness and it has sometimes been a problem with the pop use of “mindfulness.” Having a grandfather born in China where there are Buddhists doesn’t make one an expert as it does not make me an expert in the country my ancestors came from, I’ haven’t even lived there!. That is great that you got some relief from ACT, I know it is helpful . One’s personal trauma can sometimes greatly cloud one’s world view, however.

Humans are humans everywhere, the ego is always the ego, even on this board; most humans exist at the bottom level of the awareness pyramid with raging egos, regardless of the culture or religious moniker they chose to use or which is betowed on them; that’s why we are here!
Therefore there are a lot of problems. Only true spiritual people (again regardless of monniker) can make good determinations about how to act. Some are called to act in society and many do, others feel called to go off and meditate, some do a mixture of the two.A lot of times helping is really for the helper. No one is qualified to judge individuals with this, but we each can have individual opinions. At the same time each person must take 100% responsibility for her/his actions.

One needs to be very careful about seeming to ascribe causality or some type of reciprocal association.

I have never been taught in my spiritual practices by various teachers to “get rid” of emotions, only to observe them, this is not the same thing. A clear mind will always make better choices.
(from licensed therapist and over 30 yrs. spiritual student who does not like to identify with any one religious group as that can be limiting and stereotyping)

By: Leigh

Leigh — Fri, 26 Aug 2011 00:51:16 +0000

This topic is a discussion that could go on forever.
As its a topic that has been going on forever.
Constant battle between right and wrong.

You shouldnt speak of the ego as being something petty.
The ego is the problem of all society. That’s why we see thing’s wrongly.
The ego is so so strong that in a tiny moment we can identify with something and not even realize what we have done. This is something that’s happening constantly between everyone.
That’s why there’s the need of solitude.
Try it yourself for a time , put all the things you like doing away. Or lock yourself in your room for a few hours and just sit there and see what happen’s. That retaliation is the ego, that’s happening constantly everyday, at every moment.

That’s where the saying ignorance is bliss comes from,cause your not facing your problems.
There’s a bigger reason we are on this planet and the whole reason of the universe.
Where not here to join in on wars and kill the other side to live. That’s something that will go on forever no ones going to win. The ego always has to win. eg. My pride is better than yours, Im stronger than you, Oh i’m better looking than that person,etc..,

Look at a small child under the age of 5 do you every see them trying to be better than other people thinking there hard done to ,etc… There just happy for everyone. Just being there in the moment playing with there toy’s and learning.

All we think about is attacking people secretly, picking faults, wishing we had more money, better job, better car, better house, the people i work with treat me terrible, everyone hates or loves me etc.. its pretty sad really.

Let’s say in meditation we are presented with an image ,each image as 2 poles one negative one positive, understanding both sides we arrive at a synthesis comprehension of the problem. So you cant have one without the other in anything

But the whole problem of life is the ego ,it shouldn’t be dismissed so lightly.

Someone who is practicing meditation in society is going to suffer a whole lot more. Because there going to receive representations at a stronger rate. Some people don’t have that strength and wish to go to the mountains which i don’t blame them. But it will take them much longer to find all that putrefaction in the deep recesses of the mind.

The number one law in the universe is happiness and that law is broken down to love and wisdom.
The Mother and Father of every religion.
That’s why its also natural that we look to our physical mother for love
and our physical father for wisdom.

The ego destroys this totally, completely smashes it. Something so natural.